To think this was school admission fraud ?

[Survivor12345]

We put our house on the market in 2015, knowing that a key selling point was its proximity (walking distance) to the most sought-after primary school in our area, and the fact that the secondary school in our town was the #1 choice for our part of the county (Hertfordshire).

Within 48 hours we had four full asking price offers, all from families with school-age children, as expected.

To avoid a chain, we chose the buyers who claimed to be 'living in rented accommodation' in another town whose two children, then aged approx. 7 and 5, attended the primary school near us.

We did wonder how come they had got in there, but didn't question it too much, concluding that it was not our business. They gushed over our house and claimed that they would be moving straight in when we moved out, were delighted to be sure of the secondary school places etc. etc.

They turned out to have lied about being 'in rented accommodation'; in fact, they owned the house they lived in in the other town, but 'Didn't like the schools there, they are too rough'.

Whatever, after discovering that they'd lied we were halfway through the sales process so had little choice but to continue with them, even though they ducked and dived trying to claim nonsense after their survey etc. We gave them one week to complete after their extortion attempts which they complied with, as they clearly didn't want to lose the house.

So we moved out on completion - and they have never moved into the place !

OK I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS, NEVERTHELESS, LYING IS LYING IS FRAUD AS I UNDERSTAND IT WHEN IT COMES TO SCHOOL PLACES ?

Since buying our former house, they have continued to live in their house in the other town and send their children to the town's two highly over-subscribed schools, thus, in our view, depriving two children from our town of two places at good schools near their genuine homes.

They have rented our former house out and continue to own it.

What I would like to know is, does this amount to school place application fraud?

We knew they were buying our house for its proximity to these good schools, but believed them when they said that they were going to move into it and live there.

We don't care what they do, but do believe that it's wrong to game the system like this. Our children are grown, and we're not familiar with the requirements for school applications.

AIBU to ask anyone else who has recent knowledge to tell me whether what they have done is just sharp practice, or is it downright unlawful, in which case, how do I report them?

Why are you so invested in a house and family you sold it to FIVE years ago? I’m failing to see why you are this invested to the point you have been looking up (or speaking with your previous neighbours) to find out the comings and goings of the house.

I find it absolutely bizarre you aren’t living your own life.

Why on earth did you wait 5 bloody years?!!

OP’s old house/village can’t be that delightful if this family would rather stay in the “poor” and “rough” area than move there... this is like a dystopian reaction to their rejection of her former home.

I get you might feel a bit miffed - much like if your buyer immediately gutted your old house and redecorated, but this vindictiveness is next level.

Perhaps OP has friends/family whose children have just missed out on a secondary school place and she blames her buyers for it and thinks she can now step in and save the day for them...

For her friends - clearly she doesn’t care about any other children concerned

The only lies there is evidence of, is that they lied to you about renting before they bought your property and that they then didn't move in, but rented it out.
These might be lies but are not illegal nor school admissions fraud. We have zero information and neither do you on what basis they applied to schools or even which secondary schools they applied to if any.

So if you wanted to report admissions fraud, what exactly would you be reporting? You need to have something to report, such as knowing the address they put down wasn't the address they live in......but you don't know that happened.

I'm going to report this thread. As has been said, Op hasn't really engaged the the genuine questions posters have raised about what evidence there is of fraud, but just repeated statements that are irrelevant to the topic and accused posters of being pro-fraud. Other people should report the thread too if they have doubts about it all - if you get up all the Op's posts together it is a classic thread of its kind in terms of not really stacking up, not actually engaging with discussion or answering Qs and being aggressive....along with dropping just enough in every now and then to fuel up the discussion again. Am sure Op is laughing away.

if you get up all the Op's posts together it is a classic thread of its kind in terms of not really stacking up, not actually engaging with discussion or answering Qs and being aggressive....along with dropping just enough in every now and then to fuel up the discussion again.

Oh yes, it’s absolutely textbook - a prime example being the “I fully expected responses from people like you who care only about your own interests rather than abiding by rules designed to bring about fair allocation” response to me asking why she wasn’t answering any questions.

But then she couldn’t help herself and had to up the ante with the ‘poor’ end of town vs the ‘lovely’ area.

Always go too far, don’t they? They get carried away and overplay their hand.

OP what has happened now, 5 years later, that’s made you want to pursue this? I don’t understand?

No one thinks fraud is OK but you clearly did for 5 years.

I reckon it's blatant jealousy. How dare these people from the wrong side of town buy a property in this very nice area. And to rub salt in, they are renting it out.

Not like this moving for schools is a new thing. It's been around for decades hence LEA's and schools do checks, and places are withdrawn. I'm sure there are threads on here 10 years ago talking about this very issue when it was easier to get away with.

@Survivor12345

Thanks to all for your responses.

Clearly there are many people who think it's OK for others to 'game' the system and clamber over others purely in their own interests.

The buyers of our home lied to us about being in rented accommodation, they were not. They claimed they were going to move into our house, and never did so. It was rented out within a month of our moving out.

They live in a relatively 'poor' town with much lower educational attainment than the schools near our former home, and choose to bring their kids to the school/s near our house while also renting the house out at a high rent, as PP said, probably because of its proximity to excellent schools.

I personally don't think it's OK to lie, cheat and game the system, but lots of other people clearly do.

Having brought my children up in that lovely town and sent them to the excellent schools there, I'm very glad all this is behind me because the situation has become ridiculous since our children went to school.

My sympathies are with the PP on this thread whose children have lost out to fraudulent practice such as our house buyers have used, and probably still are using, and I have reported them to Herts CC School Admissions.

I'm sure if what they have done is above board they will have no problems, otherwise I believe that they should be held accountable if they applied for school places based on an address at which they had never lived.

I didn't realise until I started this thread that this practice has become commonplace and people think it's morally acceptable to cheat and lie, but you live and learn.

Strangely invested in the life of a home you sold. Why do you need to know why anyone wants to buy your house? Or what they've done with it since? You need a hobby

OP - you still haven't answered why you didn't do something 5 years ago?

Clearly there are many people who think it's OK for others to 'game' the system and clamber over others purely in their own interests.

But you have posted precisely nothing that indicates that these people have gamed the system. You don't know how they got into their primary school, you don't even know whether the older child has gone to the local secondary school, if s/he did, you have no idea what the basis for that was.

You suggest that your old house is being let out profitably because of its proximity to local schools, which indicates that it is being let to people with school age children. Does it not occur to you that, if that is the case, the local authority will be well aware that the family living there is not your purchasers' family? They do have pretty sophisticated IT systems in place to detect that sort of thing.

I see that you've reported these people to the LA anyway. Do you really feel that, with everything local authorities have on their plates currently, this is a sensible use of their very scarce resources?

Is this a three tier school system?

I really don't understand your post op. What are you on about. The kids were already in the school near the house you sold. So what's the problem? They can do what they like with a house they bought, rent it or live in it, quite frankly none of your business and why are you thinking of this 5 years later surely the kids are probably high school age now

Bloody hell OP.

I wish a problem like this was my worry in life at the moment. I’ve read the thread as I’m up worrying about something that actually fucking matters and I think you are crazy.

Move the hell on.

So five years ago it didn't bother you enough to follow up with the school, but now it does. And they were already attending the school, based off an application from a previous address. So I don't see how it's fraud, or even matters after 5 years. They were already attending

Well you still sold your house to them OP so suck it up and mind your own business.

OP, surely this is an issue of your due diligence? They lied about being in a rental property, at which point surely you had a responsibility to pull out and uphold an honest sales process? Instead, your failure to do so has apparently caused grotesque misuse of the school admissions criteria. I jolly well hope you’re learned a lesson here: you shouldn’t aid and abet this type of behaviour, which you’ve now done for five years. I’m sure there will be an extensive investigation into this, to prevent any waste of LEA resources. I’d check if they can take action against you for your role in this fraud!

The local community may well find out the role you played, and they would be - rightly - shocked and disappointed. A sad day, or perhaps five years, for education in Herts.

This was 5 years ago and you are still upset about it? Good grief. You’ve had a great life if this has been your biggest heartache over the past 5 years.

Do you know for sure that they lied about being in rented accommodation? Did they talk to you directly (in usual if there’s an estate agent handling the sale)? I’ve never spoken to the seller directly and I’ve bought a house in the UK and here in the USA - the agent wants to do all the talking to make sure you don’t cut a deal between you and leave the agent high and dry with no commission. In my experience, estate agents will convict stories about buyers to make them sound more attractive - living in rented is a good one as then there is no fear of being trapped in a chain. They may not have even had children. An estate agent selling my mum’s house told buyers she was getting married to a man overseas and therefore wanted a quick sale - not even close to the truth! Some of them are no better than used car salesmen.

It may have been their intention to move into the house in time for the children going to secondary school. They may have bought it early to get their “foot in the door” and didn’t intend to live in it immediately since the children already had places at the nation’s favourite primary school. Circumstances may have changed. Maybe they couldn’t afford to move into it. Maybe they had to rent it out at a profit because they lost their job or something. Maybe a medical condition made the house unsuitable (stairs, etc). It’s none of your business.

OP do you work in this particular school and looked up the children's details? Is that why but clearly you cannot admit that because it would be a massive breach on your part?

It's none of your business. You don't own the house. You haven't for five years. Mind your own business and get on with your life.

Stop calling it your home. It isn't. You sold it. FIVE YEARS AGO. To poor people from a poor town! 😱

I think you need to just leave it and forget about it.
you didn't do anything wrong so why worry

Where I live it is fairly normal behaviour although actually buying a house and renting it out is at the extreme end. What I have seen is when kids are due to select schools that they rent a place and sometimes move in.

However, they often only have to do the once as many schools now have a sibling rule whereby if you have a sibling at that school the get a place after the farce that some parents had kids at schools miles apart and couldn't get them there if they lived a distance away.

But yes...is fraud and is wrong

I thought it was really obvious from the OP that the fraud relates to secondary school places.

Before buying the OP's house, the family lived in another town. However, the kids attend OP's local primary school which is odd, and possibly fraudulent, as they live in another town. However they may be attending for another legitimate reason such as EHCP etc.

They bought OP's house and never moved in. It's quite clear (they even mentioned it when buying) that they were looking forward to a guaranteed secondary school place. You can't just own a house in a catchment area, you have to live there.

OP is only bothered now as I guess if this happened 5 years ago and the kids were about 5 and 7, they would now have applied for a secondary place for the oldest-possibly using the address of the house that they don't live in.

I'm glad you've reported. If it's all above board then great, if not, hopefully someone that actually meets the criteria can get in.

I thought it was really obvious from the OP that the fraud relates to secondary school places
Me too, but the line on here regarding admissions fraud seems to usually be to tell an OP to keep their nose out, it's got nothing to do with them and it's not taking a place from anyone else.
Meanwhile on appeals threads there's often loads of support for an OP trying to get into an oversubscribed school and telling them all sorts of misinformation or ways to try and argue a social or medical reason to appeal.

It would seem great schools have an infinite capacity because admission fraud has no victims and everyone should be admitted on appeal.