Non-binary

[UnaCorda]

As an intersex person, AIBU to feel slightly put out that "non-binary" has been comandeered/appropriated (if it's fair to use those terms) by people who just want to be a bit different/special?

(Sorry, that sounds a bit snarky. I would like to understand why people feel this term is important.)

Imo, if you have XX chromosomes, a womb, ovaries, breasts, a vagina, etc., you're a woman. You may not be girly, you may not be straight, you may be unconventional in myriad ways, but do those personality traits really need a label? Or, if they do, is it necessary for that label to suggest that we aren't, essentially, a binary species?

I also don't like being tagged on to the whole LGBTQ... alphabet spaghetti, but not sure whether that is a related issue. (NB I think being transgender is a different case and I'm not referring to those who genuinely feel they're in the wrong body.)

I am willing to be persuaded that IABU, but would like to hear people's opinions.

YANBU at all. It pisses me off when people tack trans onto LGB in the first place as I personally feel that they’re completely separate topics: believing that who someone is attracted to is influenced by their gender identity or vice versa is hideously old fashioned. I don’t blame you for being annoyed about Intersex being brought into the mix, as that too is different.
As PP have said, I feel that the drive toward gender fluidity has had the opposite effect. Rather than allowing people to dress as they wish, present how they wish, do as they wish, the narrative has become that if you like both things typically associated with boys and typically associated with girls that you’re NB, rather than simply someone who doesn’t need to conform to society’s gender roles. I too think it minimises the struggles that transgender people and people suffering from gender dysphoria go through.

@suggestionsplease1

Hi OP, your first post appears to imply that you feel a descriptor that is appropriate to you as an intersex person - 'non-binary' - should not be commandeered / appropriated by others who are not intersex, but then a later post from you seems to state that you yourself clearly identify as a woman (and presumably not 'non-binary'?)

Can you explain a bit more about your feelings on this?

My feelings are mixed! I suppose I identify as both, maybe concurrently, depending on the context I find myself in. Sometimes my "intersexness" isn't really relevant; at other times it is.

@UnaCorda

I've never viewed the whole LGBTQI+ thing as anything more than a clumsy contrivance for the sake of activism and advocacy, because many of the things fought for and against are common to each of these groups, but you're not alone in feeling that you're being lumped in with groups you don't necessarily have any commonality with, or that you would necessarily choose to be lumped in with.

It's a sore point for a lot of people, and I come across the gripes constantly because I work in advocacy. To me it's just a term of convenience and nothing more, but I can totally understand why it riles people.

I have to admit to finding it somewhat ironic that when I was at school, just being a mixed race girl with bushy eyebrows and a five o clock shadow, I got labelled “hermaphrodite” and “tranny” and “it”.

Although I’m not intersex, lots of girls at my school were called “it”/“hermaphrodite” as an insult if they had extra body hair, a prominent “Adams Apple”, flat chests etc. It was awful.

And now young people are falling over themselves to be labelled as “they” and s/he, ze etc.

I don’t see it as progressive. I see it as being less accepting of sex, gender, body types, likes/dislikes. And I hate that it forces other people to be labelled against their will.

Why is everyone so keen to fit into a box these days?

[quote XDownwiththissortofthingX]@UnaCorda

I've never viewed the whole LGBTQI+ thing as anything more than a clumsy contrivance for the sake of activism and advocacy, because many of the things fought for and against are common to each of these groups, but you're not alone in feeling that you're being lumped in with groups you don't necessarily have any commonality with, or that you would necessarily choose to be lumped in with.

It's a sore point for a lot of people, and I come across the gripes constantly because I work in advocacy. To me it's just a term of convenience and nothing more, but I can totally understand why it riles people.[/quote]
Yes. "LTBQ" are all sexualities (I've just realised I don't really know how "Q" is different to the other three...); "T" is identity. While "I" may of course contribute to one's identity, it is primarily physiological rather than psychological.

@SonEtLumiere

Firstly, I reject the entire notion that human sex is as simplistic and deterministic as boiling it down to chromosomes.

There are Intersex people who do not identify with the sex associated with their chromosomes, or identify with both male and female sexes, so to me human beings are far too esoteric to be defined in such a rudimentary and simplistic way.

It's not within my gift to tell any other human being what sex they are, or insist that they must be mistaken about themselves based on their chromosomes. I see that as offensive, and I'm not interested in getting into this circular, and ultimately pointless argument yet again on this forum.

The OP asked about opinions on the use of the term 'non-binary'. I offered mine and explained why I believe what I do. Sorry if that doesn't satisfy you.

Non-binary is just a way of fitting in with your friends - like being an emo, a punk or a freak. It's a meaningless label because none of us fits neatly and completely into the stereotypes of masculinity or femininity. We're all non-binary.

The cool kids are non-binary or some other fashionable label. But the non-binaries are dead keen to label the rest of us "cis". People's mums are cis. Cis is for the boring grown ups.

I remember saying I was bisexual in my youth. Yes, I did some experimenting. But looking back I think a lot of it was making myself more interesting. Same as the NBs.

YANBU but YABU to think someone can be born in the wrong body.

@Doyoumind

YANBU but YABU to think someone can be born in the wrong body.

But someone can feel that they have been, can't they?

To whom is it convenient if not the object of one’s advocacy? And in what way does it convenience them? And why if it riles or angers them, (strongly suggesting inconvenience) surely a decent advocate would desist from that activity? And if not wouldn’t the “advocacy” be all rather self-serving?

Your points would be better addressed by somebody who actually advocates for one or more of these groups. It's not the primary purpose of my advocacy, so while I come across the argument thanks to some cross-over, and the fact that advocacy groups obviously discuss issues that are common to all advocacy, I don't feel it's appropriate for me to answer when I neither work in LGBTQ advocacy, or collective advocacy.

It's also important to point out that there are forms of advocacy that do not work on a 'best interest' model, rather the wants or needs of the individual, so while you can argue that a form of advocacy that 'riles' people is surely self-serving or counterproductive, it's not necessarily the case. There are parallels in my form of advocacy, in that some of the group I work with believe one thing, others the polar opposite. Both groups find the opposing view offensive, but that doesn't cause conflicts because I advocate for individuals, not groups.

Not again! We get this type of thread daily...yawn!

@NameChange84

I think half the confused posters don’t actually realise that intersex people exist.

I suggest they google intersex. It’s a chromosomal condition. A friend for example was born with what appeared to be a penis but was later found to have ovaries, a uterus, developed breasts etc.

Intersex isn’t a trendy modern term or something you “self identify with” like being “non-binary”.

Op...YADNBU

Well, as far as I can tell, 'intersex' IS actually a trendy modern term for what I've spent about 40 years referring to as 'hermaphrodite.'

What I am most interested in is who's actually binary? And why have I never met one of them yet?

@FlamedToACrisp Hermaphroditism is a specific intersex condition but not the only one. It’s not a trendy modern term. You can be intersex and not a hermaphrodite

[quote NameChange84]@FlamedToACrisp Hermaphroditism is a specific intersex condition but not the only one. It’s not a trendy modern term. You can be intersex and not a hermaphrodite[/quote]
Thank you for explaining/clarifying.

YANBU, OP.

Re the term 'hermaphrodite' - no human (or afaik any other mammal) is a true hermaphrodite. Many other organisms are - it's more 'doubly sexed' than 'intersex', I suppose.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermaphrodite

@FunTimes2020

Not again! We get this type of thread daily...yawn!

A daily post by an intersex mumsnetter? Must be more of us than I thought.

I was going to write something but @XDownwiththissortofthingX has said what I wanted to say much more succinctly and intelligently than I would

The point of 'intersex' now being referred to as DSD (Disorders of Sexual Development) is that there's a 'normal' sex binary (male/female) that almost everyone fits into but in a small percentage of humans something goes awry with the complex arrangement of chromosomes etc during gestation.
So LGB is about who you are sexually attracted to.
Intersex/DSD is about a physical condition.
TQ NB etc is about how you feel you match to the social construct of gender.
Three very distinct groupings.

I went to a conference once and one of the speakers was a trans man. He spoke of how he disagreed with gender stereotypes etc but was sat there in a suit with a goatee beard. I asked (genuinely trying to understand) if he disagreed with such stereotypes, why on transitioning to a male was he confirming to them by dressing “male” and growing a beard. He couldn’t answer so the chair took another question

Every single one of us is a complex, multi-faceted human being, with our own hopes, dreams, talents, desires and thoughts.
I really struggle with all of this labelling. Why do people wish to put themselves or others into a box?