Non-binary

[UnaCorda]

As an intersex person, AIBU to feel slightly put out that "non-binary" has been comandeered/appropriated (if it's fair to use those terms) by people who just want to be a bit different/special?

(Sorry, that sounds a bit snarky. I would like to understand why people feel this term is important.)

Imo, if you have XX chromosomes, a womb, ovaries, breasts, a vagina, etc., you're a woman. You may not be girly, you may not be straight, you may be unconventional in myriad ways, but do those personality traits really need a label? Or, if they do, is it necessary for that label to suggest that we aren't, essentially, a binary species?

I also don't like being tagged on to the whole LGBTQ... alphabet spaghetti, but not sure whether that is a related issue. (NB I think being transgender is a different case and I'm not referring to those who genuinely feel they're in the wrong body.)

I am willing to be persuaded that IABU, but would like to hear people's opinions.

Non binary is a massive load of wank in my opinion.

Labels are for boxes.

Did you conflate sex/gender there?

No, it's just a reference to the fact that the two predominant societal notions of gender go hand in hand with two respective sexes.

Is Intersex something which someone “identifies as” or is it a description of a verifiable physical reality.

Intersex is biological (chromosomes) and not (directly) to do with identification. Which is why I don't like being included in LGBTQ...

Intersex is where biological sex is not clear at birth and so cannot be conflated with gender.

I think the OP has a point, since I believe that gender is a construct (not the same as biological sex), I struggle with the idea of transgender and non binary as I don’t really hold with gender in any case. It just seems like sexist stereotyping. Transexual is a completely different matter etc. However, my perspective is limited by my own experience and I wouldn’t dream of telling someone else how they should feel about it.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

My take on it is that as long as society still persists with the insistence that there are only two sexes/genders, then anyone who doesn't identify with those should be at liberty to describe themselves as 'non-binary'.

I don't see it as a term that should be exclusive to intersex people, trans people, or any specific group, more that it's a term for anyone who doesn't identify with the typical biological female and female gender, or biological male and male gendered identities that society tries to impose on absolutely everyone.

Biologically, there ARE only two sexes. Male and female. Checking ones DNA tells you which one you are. Gender identity is a relatively new concept, where people are put into boxes depending on whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. Apparently if you have a penis you are good at driving and watching football. If you have a vagina you're good at cooking and doing all the home schooling during lockdown. If you like cooking, watching football, wearing make up and driving fast cars you're non binary.

Intersex is where biological sex is not clear at birth and so cannot be conflated with gender.

Not necessarily. Some conditions don't become apparent until adolescence. (Unless a routine chromosome test is carried out on all babies these days?)

Biologically, there ARE only two sexes. Male and female. Checking ones DNA tells you which one you are.
Gender identity is a relatively new concept, where people are put into boxes depending on whether they were born with a penis or a vagina. Apparently if you have a penis you are good at driving and watching football. If you have a vagina you're good at cooking and doing all the home schooling during lockdown. If you like cooking, watching football, wearing make up and driving fast cars you're non binary

Again, I am emphatically NOT conflating sex with gender. I see the two as entirely separate and not necessarily linked, and always have. I'm merely referring to the fact that society does conflate them as a matter of course.

I mean, who isn't non binary really? Which of us conform to extreme sex related stereotypes? Other than animated characters and Instagram stars...we each have many and varied likes, dislikes, preferences, tastes etc.

YANBU. To my way of thinking, the whole concept of non-binary means buying into - rather than challenging - regressive 'pink and blue' female and male stereotypes.

YANBU. To my way of thinking, the whole concept of non-binary means buying into - rather than challenging - regressive 'pink and blue' female and male stereotypes.

I'm also struggling to understand exactly what this all means?

Hi OP, your first post appears to imply that you feel a descriptor that is appropriate to you as an intersex person - 'non-binary' - should not be commandeered / appropriated by others who are not intersex, but then a later post from you seems to state that you yourself clearly identify as a woman (and presumably not 'non-binary'?)

Can you explain a bit more about your feelings on this?

Can I ask what DSD you have and whether you are male or female?

or whether this is just a goady post

And yes, non-binary is a crock of shit.

No,YANBU.

Non-binary I don't have much time for. You don't fit an outdated stereotype, big wow. Does that need a label and for everyone to act differently towards you? I think it's one of those things only the non-binary person themselves has any interest in, it shouldn't really impact on anyone else.

I'm interested in what you say about being included with the LGBT... labelling. I had wondered how sexual preferences and a right to have a same sex relationship without any negative comeback (I'm mega simplifying I know) got tied in with someone's biology. It didn't seem right to just lump every vaguely identy related characteristic together. I don't think you are being unreasonable there either.

@SonEtLumiere

I agree with this -

(c) gender is a completely separate domain to sex?

but not necessarily the rest.

I think you are right in that people who suffer from intersex conditions have experienced a degree of erasure through the commondering of terms such as 'non binary' which outside of specific medical conditions is of course a fallacy. You are either xx or xy, that's two and therefore by definition binary.

My opinion on the 'trendy non-binary' is that it shows a distinct lack of understanding of gender. Gender is a spectrum with masculinity at one end and feminity at the other. We all fit on that spectrum somewhere, some of us nearer one end others more towards the middle. Its important to note that we fluctuate on that spectrum on a daily (sometimes hourly) basis, depending on the situation we find ourselves in and the people we are with at any given time.......an example might be when a woman, goes on a night out, dresses up all sparkly with high heels drinking cocktails, the very height of what we may perceive as femininity. The next morning the same woman may dress in a suit and go into a board meeting whilst drawing on what we understand to be more masculine qualities. The individuals sex did not change overnight, nor did their gender, but the characteristics they draw on do. This is completely normal healthy behaviour.

The concept of trans doesn't impact the concept of the gender spectrum, in fact they by definition do define within the binary- simply the opposite of their chromosomal make up.

Non-binary implies that everyone else is fine with the gender stereotypes that are imposed on them due to their sex. I certainly ain't. But I fight against it instead of opting out. Non-binary is basically cowardice.
Exactly this I don’t know anyone who fits into the increasingly wee & rigid gender boxes
#Genderfree

I think half the confused posters don’t actually realise that intersex people exist.

I suggest they google intersex. It’s a chromosomal condition. A friend for example was born with what appeared to be a penis but was later found to have ovaries, a uterus, developed breasts etc.

Intersex isn’t a trendy modern term or something you “self identify with” like being “non-binary”.

Op...YADNBU

"I think half the confused posters don’t actually realise that intersex people exist.*

Oh, I didn't realise that was the source of the confusion. Yes, you're probably right.

Intersex isn’t a trendy modern term or something you “self identify with” like being “non-binary”.

Exactly.

@Gingerkittykat - yes to both of those!

Non-binary is meaningless because the gender binary is meaningless.

Sex is binary - male or female. DSDs fit within that binary.

People should be free and safe to express themselves and dress however they want to.