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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Did she cross a line?

70 replies

ExhaustedFlamingo · 18/07/2020 05:30

Hi all,

NC for this. Rarely post, usually just comment but I'm really interested in gaining some opinions.

My DM and I have a long and difficult relationship. She's proven time and again to be incredibly selfish, demanding and inconsiderate. At the same time she can also be very needy, to the point that she drives away every friend she makes because she's so rude and unreasonable. She's never been able to show empathy and genuinely doesn't seem to understand how other people might be feeling.

I won't bother with the whole back story, but just to give an example - when I was in hospital, and had just given birth the day before, she came to visit me (first visit, fine). I tried to walk down the corridor, ended up collapsing and it was a bit of a mini-emergency as I was quite poorly. While the doctors /nurses were around me, she says "it's obviously a bad time, I'll come back another day" and just pissed off home. Apparently not concerned that her DD had collapsed in the corridor and seemed quite ill. My sister has gone pretty much no contact, didn't invite her to her wedding, hasn't introduced her to her DH and won't let her meet her DS. She says our DM is too toxic and says I'm too forgiving.

Anyway, to the issue.

We have been cautious with the whole coronavirus thing. I have two DS who are both autistic . My DM is top vulnerable group as she has multiple health complaints, including pulmonary conditions.

We used to pop in after school 4 nights a week, but obviously haven't seen her at all. We had two distanced visits where shopping was brought round and left on the doorstep, and a couple of Zoom calls. Last week I took one DS round. I spoke to DM first and explained no touching/hugging as my DH was back in the office and mixing with lots of people from lots of different areas so I was concerned about her wellbeing. My DS are 7 and 8. All fine.

This week, we did a second visit with both DS this time. I'd already spoken to DM and she knew the same applied: no touching just yet. She said she was fine with this, no problem. Just happy to hang out for a bit. We went round after we'd been in school for a couple of hours so I was especially keen not to touch.

My autistic DS, aged 8, was very worried about not touching - he kept asking "what if nanny touches me? Or asks me to give her a kiss?" I told him not to worry, and that she wouldn't but it probably would be fine anyway, even if he did, so not to fret. The autism is relevant as he really worries about the little things and gets anxious/in a state.

We arrive and as soon as we get in the living room, my DM announces that she's decided that "belly hugs" are safe and asks my DC to give her a belly hug. I am just gobsmacked - we agreed beforehand no hugs just yet, esp as we were coming from school. I managed to say "no, we said no hugs!" and she just talks over me and insists that I'm being silly and that belly hugs are perfectly safe as she's decided.

I'm so annoyed at her springing this on me in front of the kids, I'm speechless. I'm also massively doubting myself and thinking that probably I am being too cautious, and that it will probably be fine. So I back down, and weakly say "well if they want to, they can". But inside I'm just so angry, I can't really put into words what I'm thinking.

She turns to DS 8 and says "come and give Nanny a belly hug" - and he politely says "no, thank you". She's furious. Repeats the instruction. And again. He refuses again and again. The other DS is sat on my lap now and won't speak, let alone go near her. In the end I have to intervene and say gently "Sorry, DM, I don't think he wants to just yet". DM turns to me and angrily says "WHAT HAVE YOU TOLD THEM???" As if this is my fault somehow. I've actually said very little to the DS about coronavirus as there's no point them worrying, they just needed to know why they weren't at school and why handwashing/hygiene was super important. I've really downplayed the whole thing if anything.

The moment passes, and my DM offers my DS 8 a cake. He goes with her into the kitchen to get one. She then calls out for my other DS to go and get one. He doesn't want to go without me, even though I'm encouraging. She's very insistent from the kitchen that he goes and picks one and doesn't look happy when I walk in with him. Turns out there's a reason for this.

10 minutes later, I find out that my DS 8 has given my DM a "belly hug" in the kitchen because she asked him again. She waited until she was alone with him, and without me there so she could make sure she got her hug. The penny drops. This is why she wanted the other DS to go into the kitchen. So she could force a hug out of him too, against his clear wishes.

It wasn't obvious at the time because she's very jealous of the relationship I have with my DC. She repeatedly tells me I'm "losing them now" because they're growing up and won't want me soon. If they give me a hug or a kiss in front of her, she stares and gets angry if they don't go over and give her one too. She gets annoyed if they want to sit on my lap, not hers. She's an emotional vampire, it's the only way I can describe being around her. I'm not interested in competing with her - I don't care if the kids want to sit on her lap all afternoon while we're there. Totally fine. I don't know why she's like this. She is married - she divorced my dad when I was 8 but for my entire adult life continued to compete with me in this same way over my dad (they remained friends). He told me to try and be kind to her because she can't help it. And for transparency, she has helped me with things over the years (although I am reminded of it regularly and have to frequently express how grateful I am......) so she's not totally awful. I have tried so hard to make exceptions and to understand that she doesn't mean it, and doesn't understand what she's doing. But not today.

Sorry, I digress.

After I discovered the kitchen hug thing, we left pretty soon after. I busied myself with the DC while I was there so I didn't have to say too much as I didn't want to talk about it in front of the children. I was utterly raging inside. I also know from experience there is zero point discussing it as she'll just sulk. Massively sulk.

It's now a couple of days later and I'm still really, really pissed off. My DH wasn't there but wanted to ring her because he's also furious.

It's not even the risk thing. I know the chances are that it's probably going to be fine now. One of the reasons I wanted a slow introduction is because I didn't want her overwhelming the DC. Every phone call she's sobbed and cried and made it very emotionally draining. I don't even think it's particularly because she misses them, she just feels sorry for herself. Because they're both autistic and struggle to adjust to things changing, I just wanted a gentle reintroduction without too many demands being made on them. The weird thing is she wasn't a loving/cuddly/affectionate parent in the slightest for years but all of a sudden she's decided that she is. Primarily because she sees the DC being affectionate with me and feels like she's missing out on something that I'm getting and she's not. She always wants what anyone else has - material possessions or emotional. Honestly, I couldn't make this up if I tried. It's a standing joke. I'm getting a new bathroom put in, so she gets one. New hair cut, she gets one too. I just laugh about it because it's so ridiculous but when it comes to piggy backing onto my emotions, it's different. My DF had a heart attack and she heard him say on the phone to me "I love you". He forgot to hang the phone up and I heard her demanding him to tell her what I'd said to him in return. Next phone call from her, surprise, surprise she says pointedly "I love you....." - first time she had EVER said it to me. And she didn't say it out of love, she said it because she wanted what my DF had from me.

Anyway, back to now. I'm angry she didn't talk to me about it beforehand. I'm angry she thought it was OK to decide what was best and just announce it. I'm angry she tried repeatedly to force my DS in front of me to give her a hug and got aggressive with me when he politely declined. And most of all, I'm especially angry that she manipulated my vulnerable DS into a position where she knew she'd be able to make him do what she wanted, despite the fact he'd already made his feelings clear. She deliberately got him away from me because she knew she'd be able to pressure him into giving her what she wanted ie/ a hug.

I sound like a first class bitch, I know. Poor nan just wanted a hug from her grandchildren, right?! I understand that. And if she'd asked, I'd have probably have given in. I'm angry at the manipulation because it's typical of her behaviour. Just springing it on me deliberately in front of the DC and then trying to force them to do what she had decided. And most of all, I'm angry at myself for not being more assertive with her and for telling her why her behaviour was not OK.

I was going to message her later that night but I spoke to my DSis and she said it would just be pointless. And she's right. My DM would sulk. Nothing would change. She has form for this kind of shit but it's the manipulation of children who are especially vulnerable that really has angered me. No respect for their feelings - as long as she gets what she wants, right?!

I don't actually know how to move on from this. I know that sounds ridiculous. She refused to go and see her own DM for the last 3 months when she was dying because it was "too difficult" and I nearly cut contact with her over that. I'd managed to get into a place which was OK - I suppress a lot of my emotions around her because I don't want her leeching off them, but other than that it's fine. The DC love her but say she is "very grumpy and shouty" - which she is. She's hard work. But now, I almost feel as if this has brought back all the suppressed emotions from the shit she's done over the years - and there is a hell of a lot. Just one silly thing and I'm stuck. I love her, but I hate her behaviour and know she will never, ever, ever understand what she's doing.

I guess my AIBU is - AIBU to be angry at what she did this week and for forcing the DC to hug her against my express wishes, against our agreement and against their clear feelings? Surely they have the right to say no without being badgered?!

OP posts:
ExhaustedFlamingo · 18/07/2020 05:32

Wow. Epic long read.

I don't expect anyone to get through all of that. I think I just needed to write it down to try and get my head straight.

Also, utter fail with NC. Yay me.

OP posts:
Tlollj · 18/07/2020 05:41

Well I agree with your sister, contacting her about it won’t do any good.
It strikes me that you see her too much. 4 nights a week is a lot, I’d be cutting that down, if she sulks she’ll just have to sulk.
Try to pull away and create some distance, you don’t have to go as far as your sister, although I wouldn’t blame you if you did, just pull away.
And I definitely don’t think you were unreasonable not to want her to hug your dc yet and the way she went about it was disgraceful.

longtimelurkerfirsttimeposter · 18/07/2020 05:43

My MIL is the same and resents it when my DC, 2.5 and 8 months show me, their mother, affection.
I found it really bizarre at first but now I just laugh.
If they give me a hug or a kiss, she will immediately start harassing DS for a hug and kiss, etc

At his age though, he can quite confidently and assertively say NO and his wishes have to be respected. She tries to emotionally blackmail and say she won't speak to him ever again, won't ever put Peppa Pig on for him again, etc he just ignores her ridiculousness!

I am sorry you had to go through that and so much more with your mother, other than going v low contact I cannot offer useful advice but solidarity from me against self absorbed, emotionally draining people Flowers

lyralalala · 18/07/2020 05:45

I sound like a first class bitch, I know

No, you don't.

It would be the last time I took my DC to her house. Not only did she ignore your wishes, but she completely ignored your DC's wishes. No-one forces physical contact onto my children and stays part of our lives. She doesn't care about anyone except herself.

Celticdawn5 · 18/07/2020 05:48

I agree with PP’s .Minimise contact for your own well being.

flapjackfairy · 18/07/2020 05:52

Well personally I think you have every right to be furious. She manipulated vulnerable kids to get her way and cares nothing for their needs or feelings and undermines you into the bargain ! I agree with your sister . Go low contact and I would absolutely not take my kids there to be subjected to her shouting and abuse because that's what it is.
She is doing to them what she did to you. Don't let her. They are not able to challenge it so you must protect them from it . She will never change as you already know and it is sad because the need to have everything others have etc show what an unhappy person she is but you cannot sacrifice yourself and your children's happiness to try to change that because it simply won't work anyway. Accept that and I would concentrate on your own family . You don't sound like a bitch btw rather a lovely person trying to do your best.

Lolalovesmarmite · 18/07/2020 05:56

I don’t think you’re being at all unreasonable. I also think it seems like you spend far too much time with her. My mum had a relationship like this with her sister and it was incredibly unhealthy and, quite honestly, codependent. Mum spent vast amounts of time trying to placate her sister for whatever ‘crime’ she’d committed most recently. She stopped putting pictures on Facebook, because her sister was jealous of what she was doing, and it got ridiculous. Eventually they stopped speaking which came as a huge relief to all of us because we were sick of our mum being held to ransom and emotionally blackmailed over what she could and couldn’t do. I suspect if you’re there 4 nights a week you’re too closely embroiled to really see but I can guarantee you that this is not a healthy relationship for your sons to be exposed to. If someone truly loves you, then they’re happy and not jealous that you have other people who love you too.

TheBestUsernamesAreGone · 18/07/2020 05:57

Totally crossed a line. Your sons need to know, as all children do, that if they say 'no' to something they will be respected. Then the 'keep a secret from Mum by doing it in the kitchen' thing. No no no.

Atadaddicted · 18/07/2020 06:01

It’s this that stands out out tone

We used to pop in after school 4 nights a week

I just don’t get this kind of family dynamic. You have a difficult relationship with her; she’s let you down at critical times; you don’t seem at all fond of her and yet... you intentionally so closely entwine her in your and your children’s lives ConfusedConfused

Atadaddicted · 18/07/2020 06:03

* My DM and I have a long and difficult relationship. She's proven time and again to be incredibly selfish, demanding and inconsiderate. At the same time she can also be very needy, to the point that she drives away every friend she makes because she's so rude and unreasonable. She's never been able to show empathy and genuinely doesn't seem to understand how other people might be feeling. *

And yet you Used to visit with your children 4x a week after school?! Do you see how that’s a bit.... peculiar?

Atadaddicted · 18/07/2020 06:05

* She turns to DS 8 and says "come and give Nanny a belly hug" - and he politely says "no, thank you". She's furious. Repeats the instruction. And again. He refuses again and again. The other DS is sat on my lap now and won't speak, let alone go near her. *

At this point I would have gathered up my children and bid my farewells

Op you need to woman up

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 18/07/2020 06:09

What is a belly hug? Confused

Merryhobnobs · 18/07/2020 06:15

Our families in both sides live quite far away so we usually only see them a few times a year. My kids are more than fine. My mum is complicated so actually keeping it to a few times a year is wise especially as my daughter now picks up on things and I have no desire for her to be brought up exposed to that dynamic. You need to cut it back. She will get worse with your boys. It is not healthy for any of you.

ExhaustedFlamingo · 18/07/2020 06:25

Oh blimey - replies! I wasn't expecting anyone to wade through everything I'd written haha! Thank you all so much, I really appreciate this more than you know. I feel very self-indulgent banging on and moaning!!!!

I've been up all night working so I'm just going to bed, and I'm so tired, my eyes are shutting so I'll reply properly later.

But just to clarify the question about going round there so often.

My DM offered to help with childcare after school so I could work. I work from home (self employed) but have tight deadlines and I can't always get things done between 9am and 3pm when children are at school. One of my DS especially has quite high needs, the other less obviously so but more communication issues connected with autism so she said she'd help. Anyway, that's how it evolved. She would help watch them and get to spend lots of lovely time with them too which she wanted. Also, and I didn't mention this in the post as it's not really relevant but my DM has a disability (she was born with it) separate from her health issues. So from a very young age, I've been brought up to help her and support her and help with the things she needs. She does have a husband, my stepdad, but she says I understand her disability better and she feels safer with me. She also gets me to do all of her paperwork, and check what the doctor tells her etc. It's completely unnecessary as she's more than capable, and so is her husband.

Anyway, as it happened, DM wasn't helping watch/look after the children so essentially I was just going round there 4 nights a week but not even switching on the laptop in that time. It would have been easier to just come home.

With the lockdown, it's been absolutely wonderful not having that emotional burden every day. And when I have contacted her, I've come away feeling stressed and weighed down. When I don't talk to her, I think I miss her and how I'd hate it if something happened to her and she'd felt abandoned....but then I talk to her and I'm reminded that the reality of our relationship is very different to the one I picture in my head. She sucks the life out of me every time.

My DH says I'm a different person around her, not myself at all. I've already said to him when the DC go back to school in September, we're not returning to the previous routine. The DC haven't missed going round there - I had to poke them a bit to come with me to see her. So closer to the time, I'll tell her that we're going to go round much less. I know what she'll say "aaah, I expected as much. Well, you go and enjoy time as a family, don't worry about me. I knew this day would come." .....she loves to be a martyr.....she has my stepdad there so she's not on her own!

Maybe once a week after school, that seems reasonable do you think?? The DC love her and wouldn't want them to not see her but at the same time I really want to limit her influence.

I'm going to have to try and psyche myself up though. Right now I don't want to see her or talk to her, and I'm not actually sure how to move past this. I feel that what she did was unforgivable, especially against the backdrop of other behaviour.

I have always taught my DS about respecting others and their feelings. If they've been upset or had a meltdown and needed space on their own, I've always taught them that it's OK. My eldest DS in particular finds it hard to say how he's feeling and he worries about upsetting other people. So to find out that she's overriden his feelings, coerced him to hug her by cornering him and presumably nagging him is doubly upsetting as it goes against the hard work we're doing to try and show him that it's Ok to say you're unhappy, and that it's OK to say no etc as long as you're polite. Both the school and I have been working with him for years, teaching him to express his emotions - and she knows this.

My son isn't great at communicating things that have happened as his language skills aren't quite where they need to be. I very gently asked him what Nanny said to him in the kitchen and I said it's totally fine he hugged her if that's what he wanted to do. He says he can't remember what she said and I'm not going to push him. I did ask why he suddenly changed his mind and he said that when Nanny was talking to him in the kitchen the idea to hug her "just came into his head". I'm not asking him anything more. I know that without me there he won't have had the confidence to stand up to her in the face of extremely pushy behaviour. Grrrrr. I'm so pissed off.

OP posts:
labyrinthloafer · 18/07/2020 06:29

I think your sister could be helpful, you should chat with her?. I would not be going 4 nights a week and I wouldn't go now if she didn't respect wishes.

There are lots of threads on the relationship board about similar issues with parents.

lyralalala · 18/07/2020 06:29

Maybe once a week after school, that seems reasonable do you think?? The DC love her and wouldn't want them to not see her but at the same time I really want to limit her influence.

Why do you feel they should see her?

What good things does she bring to their lives?

In your shoes she wouldn't be seeing them at all until she apologised. She won't apologise, but that is her choice.

I certainly wouldn't be committing to once a week. Maybe once a month. And only as and when it fitted in with our lives.

Have you ever had counselling about your relationship? I would urge you to consider it.

lyralalala · 18/07/2020 06:31

I know that without me there he won't have had the confidence to stand up to her in the face of extremely pushy behaviour. Grrrrr. I'm so pissed off

He didn't have the confidence to stand up to her with you there

You don't have the confidence to stand up to her behaviour so why would he?

ElizabethMainwaring · 18/07/2020 06:33

@DrinkFeckArseGirls

What is a belly hug? Confused
Yes, what is a belly hug? And op, you are not being the least bit unreasonable.
SpongeBobJudgeyPants · 18/07/2020 06:36

She sounds really draining. Been said already but low contact is the way to go, if you don't want to cut contact completely. I think you are trapped in the Fear Obligation and Guilt thing, which might be worth a Google if you're not familiar. My mother has shit /no boundaries, so I do sympathise. Most of the time I reluctantly accept the situation, but this week she has said something that was obviously going to make a bad situation worse. So, I feel your pain. These toxic situations are not improved at all in lockdown it seems. I had counselling for my difficult childhood, which helped a lot.

ExhaustedFlamingo · 18/07/2020 06:41

Actually, just to add to my last post......

My DF was terminally ill and I was his carer. My DM liked him to go round there every day even though they were divorced. He liked to go there every day too. So I had young babies, I was starting a business to pay the mortgage, supporting my mum with her disability and health needs, and caring singlehandedly for my DF and I had to do it in her house, which she was thrilled about. My DM wouldn't do anything for my DF but still wanted him there (she's also very controlling - part of not wanting to miss out). My house is also much smaller so another reason why DF was more comfortable there.

So, that was also a factor. I cared for my DF until he died, and then after that, we didn't stop going round there as we were all in a bit of a routine and that was when DM said she'd help to look after the DC. If I didn't go round she got all upset and teary. She suffers with depression on and off too, just to complicate things. For as long as I can remember, I've been primed to be the person that looks after everyone in our family and despite the difficulties, I've just got on and done it. There's always been a reason why she needed to see me each night, and I slowly just stopped questioning it.

Re being assertive - my DH will verify that I am normally very assertive with her over her behaviour. We have massive rows at times and I've tried to thrash things out time and again. I think she just caught me by surprise and I was doubting whether I was being reasonable with the not hugging thing. Because my own emotions are complicated I was doubting whether I was using the virus as an excuse, if that makes sense? I'm knackered from trying to home-educate two children with special needs at home, keep a business going, meet deadlines, and all the usual bills, shopping, housework etc, plus care for my mum from a distance - I was just caught on the hop and was just worn down. Normally I'm a little bit too feisty with her about calling out her behaviour, if anything.

The only thing I've not been assertive about is insisting on coming home and not going round there. That's where I need to put my big girl pants on, and I intend to do so now.

OP posts:
lyralalala · 18/07/2020 06:45

My DF was terminally ill and I was his carer. My DM liked him to go round there every day even though they were divorced. He liked to go there every day too. So I had young babies, I was starting a business to pay the mortgage, supporting my mum with her disability and health needs, and caring singlehandedly for my DF and I had to do it in her house, which she was thrilled about. My DM wouldn't do anything for my DF but still wanted him there (she's also very controlling - part of not wanting to miss out). My house is also much smaller so another reason why DF was more comfortable there.

She is utterly selfish. That will never change.

Something to consider - how manipulative will she be able to be toward your DC's due to their autism?

I would be very wary of her being a daily, or weekly, part of their lives. You don't want her being able to transfer how poorly she treats you onto how she treats them.

ContessaferJones · 18/07/2020 06:45

@Atadaddicted

* My DM and I have a long and difficult relationship. She's proven time and again to be incredibly selfish, demanding and inconsiderate. At the same time she can also be very needy, to the point that she drives away every friend she makes because she's so rude and unreasonable. She's never been able to show empathy and genuinely doesn't seem to understand how other people might be feeling. *

And yet you Used to visit with your children 4x a week after school?! Do you see how that’s a bit.... peculiar?

The problem is that the rest of your family and the world generally make you feel incredibly guilty if you don't adhere to standard loving family behaviour and maintain visits etc, even if they openly acknowledge that the person you're visiting is a Grade A bitch.
picklemewalnuts · 18/07/2020 06:47

She sounds like a complicated woman.
Is there autism elsewhere in your or DH's family?

I wonder because she sounds as though she is 'copying' relationships, seeing what a good relationship looks like and then insisting people behave that way with her.

However, you need to create some distance for you all. I'd say when school restarts say the boys aren't used to being out so much, and need more time at home. She's using her disabilities to manipulate you into spending time with her.

Is there any type of visit you and the boys do enjoy? Meeting for a meal, or going for a walk? If so make that the way you get together instead.

ContessaferJones · 18/07/2020 06:49

OP, my mother did the jealous weird copying behavior as well. You're not mad, it is real and very strange to be around. My mother has now died and honestly, it was a bit of a relief. Not least because I no longer feel obliged to visit and keep contact open, even though she was often incredibly challenging! It's as if in the eyes of the world you have to forgive them because they did one nice thing for every 10 shitty things.

She did the emotional vampirism too.... I suspect she was autistic herself tbh (dsis and I have strong traits as does DS2) and didn't really get how humans work. Ironically I think I learned a lot from her on how not to behave Grin

ExhaustedFlamingo · 18/07/2020 06:50

I really am going to bed in a minute but I keep reading your replies. Lots of really valid points and some interesting things I'm going to google. Thank you so much, I appreciate you taking the time - even those of you who think it's all very weird. You're not wrong. I think you just get sucked into a family dynamic and it's hard to see a different way sometimes.

Again, just to emphasise I normally do stand up to her - and my DH will often tell me that I've been too hard because I genuinely don't normally allow her to pull any shit whatsoever with my DC. I think I was trying not to be my usual brittle self with her as it was one of the first visits, and I thought that perhaps I was in the wrong by saying no hugging. I have many insecurities in life, but I've had to fight for my DC with the system so normally I'm extra protective and wouldn't normally back down.

So.....a belly hug hahaha! I have no idea where she got this idea from. Basically, rather than just give someone a cuddle where your faces might be quite close - head on chest etc, and it might include a kiss - a belly hug involves hugging them round the waist, keeping the head low. My DC head on her waist so not near her face and not breathing on each other. No fucking clue where she got this idea from - I guarantee you she saw it somewhere else though and decided it was the thing to do.

OP posts:
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