Did she cross a line?

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

Hi all,

NC for this. Rarely post, usually just comment but I'm really interested in gaining some opinions.

My DM and I have a long and difficult relationship. She's proven time and again to be incredibly selfish, demanding and inconsiderate. At the same time she can also be very needy, to the point that she drives away every friend she makes because she's so rude and unreasonable. She's never been able to show empathy and genuinely doesn't seem to understand how other people might be feeling.

I won't bother with the whole back story, but just to give an example - when I was in hospital, and had just given birth the day before, she came to visit me (first visit, fine). I tried to walk down the corridor, ended up collapsing and it was a bit of a mini-emergency as I was quite poorly. While the doctors /nurses were around me, she says "it's obviously a bad time, I'll come back another day" and just pissed off home. Apparently not concerned that her DD had collapsed in the corridor and seemed quite ill. My sister has gone pretty much no contact, didn't invite her to her wedding, hasn't introduced her to her DH and won't let her meet her DS. She says our DM is too toxic and says I'm too forgiving.

Anyway, to the issue.

We have been cautious with the whole coronavirus thing. I have two DS who are both autistic . My DM is top vulnerable group as she has multiple health complaints, including pulmonary conditions.

We used to pop in after school 4 nights a week, but obviously haven't seen her at all. We had two distanced visits where shopping was brought round and left on the doorstep, and a couple of Zoom calls. Last week I took one DS round. I spoke to DM first and explained no touching/hugging as my DH was back in the office and mixing with lots of people from lots of different areas so I was concerned about her wellbeing. My DS are 7 and 8. All fine.

This week, we did a second visit with both DS this time. I'd already spoken to DM and she knew the same applied: no touching just yet. She said she was fine with this, no problem. Just happy to hang out for a bit. We went round after we'd been in school for a couple of hours so I was especially keen not to touch.

My autistic DS, aged 8, was very worried about not touching - he kept asking "what if nanny touches me? Or asks me to give her a kiss?" I told him not to worry, and that she wouldn't but it probably would be fine anyway, even if he did, so not to fret. The autism is relevant as he really worries about the little things and gets anxious/in a state.

We arrive and as soon as we get in the living room, my DM announces that she's decided that "belly hugs" are safe and asks my DC to give her a belly hug. I am just gobsmacked - we agreed beforehand no hugs just yet, esp as we were coming from school. I managed to say "no, we said no hugs!" and she just talks over me and insists that I'm being silly and that belly hugs are perfectly safe as she's decided.

I'm so annoyed at her springing this on me in front of the kids, I'm speechless. I'm also massively doubting myself and thinking that probably I am being too cautious, and that it will probably be fine. So I back down, and weakly say "well if they want to, they can". But inside I'm just so angry, I can't really put into words what I'm thinking.

She turns to DS 8 and says "come and give Nanny a belly hug" - and he politely says "no, thank you". She's furious. Repeats the instruction. And again. He refuses again and again. The other DS is sat on my lap now and won't speak, let alone go near her. In the end I have to intervene and say gently "Sorry, DM, I don't think he wants to just yet". DM turns to me and angrily says "WHAT HAVE YOU TOLD THEM???" As if this is my fault somehow. I've actually said very little to the DS about coronavirus as there's no point them worrying, they just needed to know why they weren't at school and why handwashing/hygiene was super important. I've really downplayed the whole thing if anything.

The moment passes, and my DM offers my DS 8 a cake. He goes with her into the kitchen to get one. She then calls out for my other DS to go and get one. He doesn't want to go without me, even though I'm encouraging. She's very insistent from the kitchen that he goes and picks one and doesn't look happy when I walk in with him. Turns out there's a reason for this.

10 minutes later, I find out that my DS 8 has given my DM a "belly hug" in the kitchen because she asked him again. She waited until she was alone with him, and without me there so she could make sure she got her hug. The penny drops. This is why she wanted the other DS to go into the kitchen. So she could force a hug out of him too, against his clear wishes.

It wasn't obvious at the time because she's very jealous of the relationship I have with my DC. She repeatedly tells me I'm "losing them now" because they're growing up and won't want me soon. If they give me a hug or a kiss in front of her, she stares and gets angry if they don't go over and give her one too. She gets annoyed if they want to sit on my lap, not hers. She's an emotional vampire, it's the only way I can describe being around her. I'm not interested in competing with her - I don't care if the kids want to sit on her lap all afternoon while we're there. Totally fine. I don't know why she's like this. She is married - she divorced my dad when I was 8 but for my entire adult life continued to compete with me in this same way over my dad (they remained friends). He told me to try and be kind to her because she can't help it. And for transparency, she has helped me with things over the years (although I am reminded of it regularly and have to frequently express how grateful I am......) so she's not totally awful. I have tried so hard to make exceptions and to understand that she doesn't mean it, and doesn't understand what she's doing. But not today.

Sorry, I digress.

After I discovered the kitchen hug thing, we left pretty soon after. I busied myself with the DC while I was there so I didn't have to say too much as I didn't want to talk about it in front of the children. I was utterly raging inside. I also know from experience there is zero point discussing it as she'll just sulk. Massively sulk.

It's now a couple of days later and I'm still really, really pissed off. My DH wasn't there but wanted to ring her because he's also furious.

It's not even the risk thing. I know the chances are that it's probably going to be fine now. One of the reasons I wanted a slow introduction is because I didn't want her overwhelming the DC. Every phone call she's sobbed and cried and made it very emotionally draining. I don't even think it's particularly because she misses them, she just feels sorry for herself. Because they're both autistic and struggle to adjust to things changing, I just wanted a gentle reintroduction without too many demands being made on them. The weird thing is she wasn't a loving/cuddly/affectionate parent in the slightest for years but all of a sudden she's decided that she is. Primarily because she sees the DC being affectionate with me and feels like she's missing out on something that I'm getting and she's not. She always wants what anyone else has - material possessions or emotional. Honestly, I couldn't make this up if I tried. It's a standing joke. I'm getting a new bathroom put in, so she gets one. New hair cut, she gets one too. I just laugh about it because it's so ridiculous but when it comes to piggy backing onto my emotions, it's different. My DF had a heart attack and she heard him say on the phone to me "I love you". He forgot to hang the phone up and I heard her demanding him to tell her what I'd said to him in return. Next phone call from her, surprise, surprise she says pointedly "I love you....." - first time she had EVER said it to me. And she didn't say it out of love, she said it because she wanted what my DF had from me.

Anyway, back to now. I'm angry she didn't talk to me about it beforehand. I'm angry she thought it was OK to decide what was best and just announce it. I'm angry she tried repeatedly to force my DS in front of me to give her a hug and got aggressive with me when he politely declined. And most of all, I'm especially angry that she manipulated my vulnerable DS into a position where she knew she'd be able to make him do what she wanted, despite the fact he'd already made his feelings clear. She deliberately got him away from me because she knew she'd be able to pressure him into giving her what she wanted ie/ a hug.

I sound like a first class bitch, I know. Poor nan just wanted a hug from her grandchildren, right?! I understand that. And if she'd asked, I'd have probably have given in. I'm angry at the manipulation because it's typical of her behaviour. Just springing it on me deliberately in front of the DC and then trying to force them to do what she had decided. And most of all, I'm angry at myself for not being more assertive with her and for telling her why her behaviour was not OK.

I was going to message her later that night but I spoke to my DSis and she said it would just be pointless. And she's right. My DM would sulk. Nothing would change. She has form for this kind of shit but it's the manipulation of children who are especially vulnerable that really has angered me. No respect for their feelings - as long as she gets what she wants, right?!

I don't actually know how to move on from this. I know that sounds ridiculous. She refused to go and see her own DM for the last 3 months when she was dying because it was "too difficult" and I nearly cut contact with her over that. I'd managed to get into a place which was OK - I suppress a lot of my emotions around her because I don't want her leeching off them, but other than that it's fine. The DC love her but say she is "very grumpy and shouty" - which she is. She's hard work. But now, I almost feel as if this has brought back all the suppressed emotions from the shit she's done over the years - and there is a hell of a lot. Just one silly thing and I'm stuck. I love her, but I hate her behaviour and know she will never, ever, ever understand what she's doing.

I guess my AIBU is - AIBU to be angry at what she did this week and for forcing the DC to hug her against my express wishes, against our agreement and against their clear feelings? Surely they have the right to say no without being badgered?!

I voted YABU because you seem to want a relationship with the nasty bitch.

Take a page from your sister's book and cut her out. She adds nothing to your life at all.

I'm back! I've read through every single comment - and thank you all for taking the time to read my ridiculously long post.

I have an update but I'll answer a couple of questions first:

Re autism. Yes, it has crossed my mind that she is also autistic. My DB also exhibits many tendencies, as do I. That's partly the reason why I've tried to look past her behaviour, because I think some things are because she's misunderstood. We are immersed in the autistic community, it's been our world for so long. I've acted as an advocate for others (without wanting to be too outing). I believe I have a really good understanding of autism. I also believe that many of her behaviours couldn't be attributed to autism. It's possible to be autistic and still be a shitty person. The two aren't mutually exclusive. I didn't want to mention the possibility here as I didn't want people to jump on me about it. If she is autistic, it still doesn't excuse or explain the blatant manipulation. Thank you to those who suggested that though, I think you're right that it plays a part.

Re the afterschool working. My DS (8) is still in nappies so the idea was that she'd change him, get them drinks, play with them etc while I got on with work. Generally I was in the same room. In reality though, she usually just sat and chatted to me so I couldn't work, and my DS usually wanted me to change his nappy etc anyway.

Re my DSF/DM. She remarried about 25 years ago but still wanted my dad round there every day for company. My stepdad is a pushover and would have been at work all day then anyway (he's now retired).

Re counselling - I've just finished a course, but yes I need more. I suffer crippling anxiety (hardly anyone in real life knows this as on the face of things I manage lots of things without a problem and seem confident). Social Services were involved when I was a child and I was referred to a Child Psychiatrist due to the problems with DM but after a couple of sessions where they blamed her, she got the hump and blocked me going. I don't know why it wasn't followed up or how she got away with it. But my anxiety goes back to childhood.

There have been so many incidents over the years, so many things I could tell you. I'm cringing thinking about what you'd say if I told you even half of them. I think the problem is she's very passive aggressive, it's rare for her to be overtly awful. And she's gone out of her way to help with things - for example, when I was pregnant she moved from Oxford to Devon to be near me (I split up with the bio dad when pregnant). She will tell people she's proud of me, and how clever I am (I'm really nothing special there but she bigs me up) etc. I read some of the horror stories on here and I think that I don't have any right to complain because she's done lots of nice things to help. I feel like I'm making her out to be the villain when really it's just me who's horrible.

There are some really insightful comments on here. I've had a quick google of enmeshment and FOG. I need to read more on both but on a quick glance, both seem relevant.

I am going to go back through the comments and read them all properly. I've been really shocked by the response. I genuinely expected to be told that I was being precious and to get over myself!

I've told my DH and shown him some responses and his answer was I told you so (in a nice way I mean). He's been really supportive.

I forgot to mention the update!

I phoned DM tonight to talk about this. I realised that even if it doesn't change her behaviours, I needed to tell her.

When I raised the subject, she laughed initially. As in "I know, I was a bit naughty wasn't I?" kind of laugh. That was like a red rag to a bull, as you can imagine. I didn't pull any punches. I told her that she undermined me in front of the DC, that she didn't respect their feelings, and that she deliberately manipulated a coerced a vulnerable child to get her own way. Yes, I used those words. She apologised, to be fair. She said "Yes, I can see what you're saying. I'm very sorry but I can't change what happened now. I won't do anything like this again". Unfortunately by that point the floodgates had opened, and I told her that this is exactly why DSis doesn't see her and won't let her meet her family. (My DM doesn't understand why DSis has gone low/no contact despite having been told many times). I also told her that I knew she wouldn't change because she's done this kind of thing many times before, in different ways, and I gave her an example. I told her I was furious with her and that I won't have my DC exposed to her manipulation. When I'd said my piece there was silence and she said "you've made your point, you don't need to go on about it. Please pass my apologies onto the DC."

Unbeknown to me, DH could hear me from the next room. He said I was very clear and that she could be in no doubt about exactly what she's done but that I wasn't OTT.

We changed the subject and chatted briefly before ending the call. SHe's now all sulky as she clearly feels I've told her off unfairly and that I should have just accepted her apology which she gave instantly. I know from past experience that apologies and promises to change are empty.

I do love her but I find it almost impossible to tell her that. She brought me up to not show emotions. When my pet died, my DM scolded me for crying and said if I didn't stop I wouldn't be allowed any more pets. My nan (her mum) used to regularly tell me how "cold" I was as a child because I didn't hug, kiss or say "i love you". I'm so different with my own children, we are loving, affectionate and warm, we have a lovely relationship.

I don't want to sound like I'm being all "woe is me" - I'm an adult and I can choose what I allow to define me. It's just hard to unpick a lifetime of conditioning that she's the good mum, and it's me who's the cold, unfeeling, hardhearted daughter. I have a lot to think about. I need to decide what level of contact I'm prepared to continue but it's going to be low. The comments people have made today have been so, so helpful and just a big wake-up call. Thank you again to everyone.

I forgot to mention the update!

I phoned DM tonight to talk about this. I realised that even if it doesn't change her behaviours, I needed to tell her.

When I raised the subject, she laughed initially. As in "I know, I was a bit naughty wasn't I?" kind of laugh. That was like a red rag to a bull, as you can imagine. I didn't pull any punches. I told her that she undermined me in front of the DC, that she didn't respect their feelings, and that she deliberately manipulated a coerced a vulnerable child to get her own way. Yes, I used those words. She apologised, to be fair. She said "Yes, I can see what you're saying. I'm very sorry but I can't change what happened now. I won't do anything like this again". Unfortunately by that point the floodgates had opened, and I told her that this is exactly why DSis doesn't see her and won't let her meet her family. (My DM doesn't understand why DSis has gone low/no contact despite having been told many times). I also told her that I knew she wouldn't change because she's done this kind of thing many times before, in different ways, and I gave her an example. I told her I was furious with her and that I won't have my DC exposed to her manipulation. When I'd said my piece there was silence and she said "you've made your point, you don't need to go on about it. Please pass my apologies onto the DC."

Unbeknown to me, DH could hear me from the next room. He said I was very clear and that she could be in no doubt about exactly what she's done but that I wasn't OTT.

We changed the subject and chatted briefly before ending the call. SHe's now all sulky as she clearly feels I've told her off unfairly and that I should have just accepted her apology which she gave instantly. I know from past experience that apologies and promises to change are empty.

I do love her but I find it almost impossible to tell her that. She brought me up to not show emotions. When my pet died, my DM scolded me for crying and said if I didn't stop I wouldn't be allowed any more pets. My nan (her mum) used to regularly tell me how "cold" I was as a child because I didn't hug, kiss or say "i love you". I'm so different with my own children, we are loving, affectionate and warm, we have a lovely relationship.

I don't want to sound like I'm being all "woe is me" - I'm an adult and I can choose what I allow to define me. It's just hard to unpick a lifetime of conditioning that she's the good mum, and it's me who's the cold, unfeeling, hardhearted daughter. I have a lot to think about. I need to decide what level of contact I'm prepared to continue but it's going to be low. The comments people have made today have been so, so helpful and just a big wake-up call. Thank you again to everyone.

Sorry for the double post. My laptop is being an utter nob.

She totally crossed a line and one that should never be crossed. My youngest is awaiting a diagnosis of ASD. Everyone who knows him is fully aware that hugs kisses etc are totally on his terms. They can ask but if he says no that is final. Even I get told no when his experiencing a meltdown or in a strop. The only time I will hug him without checking is when his shutting down because his hurt himself I order to reassure him that I am with him and going nowhere. Your mother should not have put your child in that position.

Well done @ExhaustedFlamingo !!! That’s a bloody brilliant update and so many congratulations for standing your ground and stating your point without getting carried away.

Keep your strength, know you are totally right, and please, please cut down contact as much as you feel able to. Your dc can’t say no to her, but you can.

You might look into counselling, maybe read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward (?? I think) and see if any of it resonates. Perhaps talk again to your DSis about her reasons for going LC.

You didn’t benefit from having her in your life, I doubt your dc will either. Don’t doubt yourself

You sound like a wonderful mother and a very caring person.

There’s a really powerful saying that I think is really relevant here: “don’t set yourself on fire to keep others warm.”

Your mother:

• Makes unreasonable demands of you
• Stresses you out and emotionally manipulates you to the point of exhaustion
• Goes against your explicit wishes with regards to the health of your children
• Manipulates your vulnerable children
• Has alienated your sister to the point of no contact.

The more you give an emotional vampire, the more they will take. You’re not even seeing her regularly but you’re spending hours thinking about her, worrying about her future response to perfectly reasonable childcare changes, discussing her behaviour with your husband, writing about her on the internet.

Only you can decide what to do - but imagine the freedom if you had all of that time spent managing her behaviour back to focus on you, and your children. Imagine how freeing it would be!

Have you ever read about narcissistic parents? I wonder if it might resonate with you and be worth exploring in therapy.

OP, I think you probably need to accept that you're not going to change her behaviour despite having pointed out how upset it made you. The fact she admitted she'd been a bit "naughty" tells you she knew how you would feel... and did it anyway.

I would strongly recommend reducing contact with her, and also reading this book:

www.amazon.com/Toxic-Parents-Overcoming-Hurtful-Reclaiming/dp/0553381407

You did so well!!

Seriously, so much of what you're saying matches my own experience, which hopefully will reassure you that you're not a bad awful person (or that if you are, then there are 2 of us ). The empty apologies and 'I've apologised, now please leave it' plus the accusations of being cold and unfeeling are very familiar. I do think that we deliberately restrict any emotion we show such people because they are such emotional vampires though; don't you think? I definitely shut down so as not to give ammunition.

Anyway, to repeat: you did marvellously, well done

I didn't read it all tbh. But honestly, you need to stp putting your children in this horrible environment. They'll grow up remembering than grandma made them unhappy and mummy did nothing to stop it. You knew your son didnt want to hug her before you went in. Then because she made you uncomfortable you put the responsibility to say no on him and didnt stand up for him.

Stand up for your kids and protect them from this.

Good update - well done.

A point to consider; all of the nice things she's done for you.

She moved to be closer to you. That's self interest. She likes being able to exert control and it's not possible for you to dance attendance on her from a distance. It also doesn't fit with her narrative as the 'doting Grandma' that she'll be selling to people, if she lives far away.

Likewise the being proud of you and bigging up your achievements - this is completely to bask in reflected glory and to position herself as being someone responsible for your successes.

I suspect that if you were to go back and review her actions, you would discover that all of these 'nice' things were done purely because they happened to suit her. There will have been an opportunity to boast, or she will have derived a direct benefit from it - because look at how she behaves when there is nothing in it for her; she walks off and leaves you in hospital.

@ExhaustedFlamingo

I'm so annoyed at her springing this on me in front of the kids, I'm speechless. I'm also massively doubting myself and thinking that probably I am being too cautious, and that it will probably be fine. So I back down, and weakly say "well if they want to, they can". But inside I'm just so angry, I can't really put into words what I'm thinking.
OP this is the point you should have gathered up your children and gone home. Not only did she complete disregard your wishes (which she'd initially agreed to) but she disregarded your children's wishes. She manipulated and confused your child. What would you do in the same situation next time? How would your children feel next time - based on this experience?

Your "D"M is not a good person, I'm afraid, let alone a good mother. What sort of mother just leaves her daughter collapsed in hospital, albeit with medical staff around her, and goes home?

I personally think you need to take a leaf out of your sister's book and go much lower contact with your mother and put stronger, more consistent barriers in place between you for your own sake, as well as your children.

Also, if you haven't considered counselling to work through the toxic relationship you have with her, rather than impotently feeling the (justified) internal rage, perhaps now is the time.

I hope you can get help to get the strength and confidence you need to get through this OP. I know it's hard. 🌹

you need a break from her,
you visit too much by the sound of things.
she is not taking the virus seriously.

you gave a great update, but follow through.actions speak loudly op

Ah - I've just seen your last updates OP. I'm glad you've had a free and frank conversation with her, and told her exactly how you really feel. Good for you and, whilst she won't have appreciated hearing what you've said to her (Bravo!) healthy for her too.

I'm glad you are considering going back to counselling. I'm sure that will be good for all your little family (DH, your children and, most particularly, for you). Well done.

It sounds like your Mum has Narcissistic personality disorder.

I had a heartbreaking relationship with my mum. I could not believe how she would treat me. One of the worst examples, calling me when I was in labour to tell me my dad had had a heart attack and they were trying to resuscitate him and then hanging up. A lie. After a lifetime of incidents like this I finally had counselling. They advised either no contact or very limited. I opted for very limited contact as I could not explain to the rest of my large extended family why I would go no contact. My mum is a master at manipulation and would have totally lied about the situation. So I see her once every two weeks for half an hour and literally talk about the weather. I very rarely tell her anything about our lives or she turns it around and says anything to hurt me and my family. But life is much much better.

Children should never be forced to give or receive physical affection when they don't want to.

OP you did so well to tell her clearly why what she did was unacceptable, not because she will hear it or change (she won't) but because you need to say it. I'd urge you to look back over your posts and see how many times you've described yourself as cold, distant, brittle - from the way you describe your relationship with your DC that doesn't sound right at all. You have internalised the message that you are a cold, unfeeling, mean person - wonder where that came from?

You've grown able to see your 'D'M more clearly, please have a real look at yourself and how you think of yourself, you don't come across here as any of those things, and I bet if you asked your DP or others close to you, they wouldn't recognise you in that description either. It will be so much easier to protect yourself and your DC from your mum's narcissism once you stop subscribing to her ideas of who you are. I know it's easier said than done, but honestly, if you could see yourself as others see you, and not through the lens that suits her, this will be so much simpler.