Did she cross a line?

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

Hi all,

NC for this. Rarely post, usually just comment but I'm really interested in gaining some opinions.

My DM and I have a long and difficult relationship. She's proven time and again to be incredibly selfish, demanding and inconsiderate. At the same time she can also be very needy, to the point that she drives away every friend she makes because she's so rude and unreasonable. She's never been able to show empathy and genuinely doesn't seem to understand how other people might be feeling.

I won't bother with the whole back story, but just to give an example - when I was in hospital, and had just given birth the day before, she came to visit me (first visit, fine). I tried to walk down the corridor, ended up collapsing and it was a bit of a mini-emergency as I was quite poorly. While the doctors /nurses were around me, she says "it's obviously a bad time, I'll come back another day" and just pissed off home. Apparently not concerned that her DD had collapsed in the corridor and seemed quite ill. My sister has gone pretty much no contact, didn't invite her to her wedding, hasn't introduced her to her DH and won't let her meet her DS. She says our DM is too toxic and says I'm too forgiving.

Anyway, to the issue.

We have been cautious with the whole coronavirus thing. I have two DS who are both autistic . My DM is top vulnerable group as she has multiple health complaints, including pulmonary conditions.

We used to pop in after school 4 nights a week, but obviously haven't seen her at all. We had two distanced visits where shopping was brought round and left on the doorstep, and a couple of Zoom calls. Last week I took one DS round. I spoke to DM first and explained no touching/hugging as my DH was back in the office and mixing with lots of people from lots of different areas so I was concerned about her wellbeing. My DS are 7 and 8. All fine.

This week, we did a second visit with both DS this time. I'd already spoken to DM and she knew the same applied: no touching just yet. She said she was fine with this, no problem. Just happy to hang out for a bit. We went round after we'd been in school for a couple of hours so I was especially keen not to touch.

My autistic DS, aged 8, was very worried about not touching - he kept asking "what if nanny touches me? Or asks me to give her a kiss?" I told him not to worry, and that she wouldn't but it probably would be fine anyway, even if he did, so not to fret. The autism is relevant as he really worries about the little things and gets anxious/in a state.

We arrive and as soon as we get in the living room, my DM announces that she's decided that "belly hugs" are safe and asks my DC to give her a belly hug. I am just gobsmacked - we agreed beforehand no hugs just yet, esp as we were coming from school. I managed to say "no, we said no hugs!" and she just talks over me and insists that I'm being silly and that belly hugs are perfectly safe as she's decided.

I'm so annoyed at her springing this on me in front of the kids, I'm speechless. I'm also massively doubting myself and thinking that probably I am being too cautious, and that it will probably be fine. So I back down, and weakly say "well if they want to, they can". But inside I'm just so angry, I can't really put into words what I'm thinking.

She turns to DS 8 and says "come and give Nanny a belly hug" - and he politely says "no, thank you". She's furious. Repeats the instruction. And again. He refuses again and again. The other DS is sat on my lap now and won't speak, let alone go near her. In the end I have to intervene and say gently "Sorry, DM, I don't think he wants to just yet". DM turns to me and angrily says "WHAT HAVE YOU TOLD THEM???" As if this is my fault somehow. I've actually said very little to the DS about coronavirus as there's no point them worrying, they just needed to know why they weren't at school and why handwashing/hygiene was super important. I've really downplayed the whole thing if anything.

The moment passes, and my DM offers my DS 8 a cake. He goes with her into the kitchen to get one. She then calls out for my other DS to go and get one. He doesn't want to go without me, even though I'm encouraging. She's very insistent from the kitchen that he goes and picks one and doesn't look happy when I walk in with him. Turns out there's a reason for this.

10 minutes later, I find out that my DS 8 has given my DM a "belly hug" in the kitchen because she asked him again. She waited until she was alone with him, and without me there so she could make sure she got her hug. The penny drops. This is why she wanted the other DS to go into the kitchen. So she could force a hug out of him too, against his clear wishes.

It wasn't obvious at the time because she's very jealous of the relationship I have with my DC. She repeatedly tells me I'm "losing them now" because they're growing up and won't want me soon. If they give me a hug or a kiss in front of her, she stares and gets angry if they don't go over and give her one too. She gets annoyed if they want to sit on my lap, not hers. She's an emotional vampire, it's the only way I can describe being around her. I'm not interested in competing with her - I don't care if the kids want to sit on her lap all afternoon while we're there. Totally fine. I don't know why she's like this. She is married - she divorced my dad when I was 8 but for my entire adult life continued to compete with me in this same way over my dad (they remained friends). He told me to try and be kind to her because she can't help it. And for transparency, she has helped me with things over the years (although I am reminded of it regularly and have to frequently express how grateful I am......) so she's not totally awful. I have tried so hard to make exceptions and to understand that she doesn't mean it, and doesn't understand what she's doing. But not today.

Sorry, I digress.

After I discovered the kitchen hug thing, we left pretty soon after. I busied myself with the DC while I was there so I didn't have to say too much as I didn't want to talk about it in front of the children. I was utterly raging inside. I also know from experience there is zero point discussing it as she'll just sulk. Massively sulk.

It's now a couple of days later and I'm still really, really pissed off. My DH wasn't there but wanted to ring her because he's also furious.

It's not even the risk thing. I know the chances are that it's probably going to be fine now. One of the reasons I wanted a slow introduction is because I didn't want her overwhelming the DC. Every phone call she's sobbed and cried and made it very emotionally draining. I don't even think it's particularly because she misses them, she just feels sorry for herself. Because they're both autistic and struggle to adjust to things changing, I just wanted a gentle reintroduction without too many demands being made on them. The weird thing is she wasn't a loving/cuddly/affectionate parent in the slightest for years but all of a sudden she's decided that she is. Primarily because she sees the DC being affectionate with me and feels like she's missing out on something that I'm getting and she's not. She always wants what anyone else has - material possessions or emotional. Honestly, I couldn't make this up if I tried. It's a standing joke. I'm getting a new bathroom put in, so she gets one. New hair cut, she gets one too. I just laugh about it because it's so ridiculous but when it comes to piggy backing onto my emotions, it's different. My DF had a heart attack and she heard him say on the phone to me "I love you". He forgot to hang the phone up and I heard her demanding him to tell her what I'd said to him in return. Next phone call from her, surprise, surprise she says pointedly "I love you....." - first time she had EVER said it to me. And she didn't say it out of love, she said it because she wanted what my DF had from me.

Anyway, back to now. I'm angry she didn't talk to me about it beforehand. I'm angry she thought it was OK to decide what was best and just announce it. I'm angry she tried repeatedly to force my DS in front of me to give her a hug and got aggressive with me when he politely declined. And most of all, I'm especially angry that she manipulated my vulnerable DS into a position where she knew she'd be able to make him do what she wanted, despite the fact he'd already made his feelings clear. She deliberately got him away from me because she knew she'd be able to pressure him into giving her what she wanted ie/ a hug.

I sound like a first class bitch, I know. Poor nan just wanted a hug from her grandchildren, right?! I understand that. And if she'd asked, I'd have probably have given in. I'm angry at the manipulation because it's typical of her behaviour. Just springing it on me deliberately in front of the DC and then trying to force them to do what she had decided. And most of all, I'm angry at myself for not being more assertive with her and for telling her why her behaviour was not OK.

I was going to message her later that night but I spoke to my DSis and she said it would just be pointless. And she's right. My DM would sulk. Nothing would change. She has form for this kind of shit but it's the manipulation of children who are especially vulnerable that really has angered me. No respect for their feelings - as long as she gets what she wants, right?!

I don't actually know how to move on from this. I know that sounds ridiculous. She refused to go and see her own DM for the last 3 months when she was dying because it was "too difficult" and I nearly cut contact with her over that. I'd managed to get into a place which was OK - I suppress a lot of my emotions around her because I don't want her leeching off them, but other than that it's fine. The DC love her but say she is "very grumpy and shouty" - which she is. She's hard work. But now, I almost feel as if this has brought back all the suppressed emotions from the shit she's done over the years - and there is a hell of a lot. Just one silly thing and I'm stuck. I love her, but I hate her behaviour and know she will never, ever, ever understand what she's doing.

I guess my AIBU is - AIBU to be angry at what she did this week and for forcing the DC to hug her against my express wishes, against our agreement and against their clear feelings? Surely they have the right to say no without being badgered?!

YANBU. She is at best insensitive and at worst a manipulative bully. Once a week after school seems a lot to me considering the way she is.

I agree with your sister. If I pre-arranged the no contact rule with my mother and she ignored it I would go mad. Your dc must have been so confused. I feel sorry for them.

I'd ring her once a week and visit once a month.

I stopped reading after the hug.

Why were you seeing this woman 4 days a week and encouraging them to have a relationship with your children. Please get some counselling because it seems to me your sister has the right idea.

@Atadaddicted

It’s this that stands out out tone

We used to pop in after school 4 nights a week

I just don’t get this kind of family dynamic. You have a difficult relationship with her; she’s let you down at critical times; you don’t seem at all fond of her and yet... you intentionally so closely entwine her in your and your children’s lives

In reference to this and other posts questioning op's relationship with her mother... please do not underestimate the emotional manipulation that her mother would have put in, in order to make op feel that she should be there so often. It isn't as easy to dis-entwine yourself as saying "why do you do it" just as saying "why didn't she leave" in reference to DV.

@ExhaustedFlamingo stop helping her with her health needs...she has a husband for that. Draw back for you sake, and for your children's. Encouraging them to have "secret" cuddles (I am assuming a belly hug is where they cuddle around her waist?) away from you is harmful and damaging.

Time to concentrate on you and you boys now.

As a mother of an autistic, I draw the line at manipulating the children, they will sadly have to learn to protect themselves from manipulation when they are older, family should be a safe space, in my case, anybody who compromises that gets kick out.

If it was me, I would never leave DC alone with her. You have no control over what she might say and she may drip away at them trying to turn them against you or at the very least purposefully contradict things you have told them. It sounds as if you are enmeshed with her and that is a very hard thing to break free from, it might be helpful to read up about enmeshed mother-daughter relationships.

Your children are your first priority, not your mother. You said you had to prod them to visit even tho they hadn't seen her for weeks. They don't want to see her.

She sounds utterly toxic and if it were me, I'd stop taking the kids round. Go see her every now and again without them. Maybe once a month? And that's it. You have to protect your kids, and she is REALLY not good for them.

Your mother sounds exactly like mine. Everything ends up being about her and no one is allowed anything without her receiving the same. She ruined my wedding.

I’d be going low contact. This will not improve.

OP please read up on narcissistic mums. And do go low or even no contact. This all sounds so toxic.

@picklemewalnuts this also jumped out at me. Have you considered your mum may be autistic?

4 visits a week is way too much and unhealthy in my opinion. I used to get in great with my Mum and she was lovely, but there's no way I'd have visited 4 times a week. Maybe once a fortnight if that.

You need to take a massive step back and stand up to her. You said no hugs, as soon as she asked for one I'd have left.

As others have said, read up on narcissism and speak to your sister, but really listen

As soon as I read the bit about the kitchen and the cake, I knew what was coming 😡 Very few things anger me more than people taking me for a fool and ignoring what I had asked of them.
This would be crossing the line big time for me. I’d be cutting contact to the bare minimum. Why would you want to subject your children to this manipulation?

The DC love her but say she is "very grumpy and shouty"

I find grandparents with their grandkids are a lot more relaxed and easygoing than they used to be with their own children. So for your DC to say she is grumpy and shouty is not a good thing.
I really don’t understand this need of putting up with somebody’s shit behaviour just because they are family.

She crossed the line. Majorly. In fact if it was a dad or stepdad taking their grandchild into a private area to ensure they got the physical contact requested/desired this would paint a whole other picture wouldn’t it? The principle remains the same. Consent was NOT obtained it was coerced- and coerced from a vulnerable child. Fuck That.
She would not see me nor my children again for a VERY long time, if ever.

So a belly hug is basically hugging someone shorter then you, OP

OP, my mum is very similar to yours. This sounds a really tough situation for you and your boys. Have a look at the FOG cycle (fear, obligation, guilt). I'd absolutely second the PP who recommended having some counselling for this, it will help you to understand the effect her behaviour has had on you and give you some strategies for approaching a relationship with her, if you decide to continue one. Take care

No wonder you are exhausted op. Instead of going around to your mother's, use that time to get some therapy so you can see this relationship for what it is.
Your father telling you that she can't help it really did you no favours. You need to start looking after yourself now, instead of taking care of everyone else.
Hope you got some sleep.

I think you are a very kind person to continue to see your mother but you are overdoing it. Once a week is more than enough. She has relinquished her right to see DGs by going blatantly against your wishes. moving forward I would if I were you let her see them in the Park. Keep a distance, see her less, don’t allow her to upset you.

I don't have any advice op but you are not being unreasonable at all. Your mother sounds incredibly draining.

I agree with the pp that say she sounds narcissistic. There's loads of stuff on the internet about NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and how to cope with it if someone you know has it. In the short term I would definitely limit contact and try to avoid situations where she can manipulate you or your dcs (although this does sound challenging!). It must have been very hard for you and your sister that have grown up this way, it sounds like your doing an amazing job with your own dcs.

She sounds very much like my ex MIL a very very Jealous woman who is very difficult in social situations and lacks boundaries. The FOG is thick in that family.

I think your sister has the right idea.

@dancingbadger

I agree with the pp that say she sounds narcissistic. There's loads of stuff on the internet about NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) and how to cope with it if someone you know has it. In the short term I would definitely limit contact and try to avoid situations where she can manipulate you or your dcs (although this does sound challenging!). It must have been very hard for you and your sister that have grown up this way, it sounds like your doing an amazing job with your own dcs.

Perfect response. She’s a classic narcissist. Low contact will help, btw you sound lovely and a great mum.

So did I misunderstand or was your mother looking after your kids after school when you were working ? If so I would really not leave them alone with her ever. Goodness knows what emotional damage she could inflict on them unobserved and it gives her more of a right ( in her eyes ) to stick her oar in I would imagine . She sounds awful frankly and I can't understand your father indulging her especially when he was dying !

You sound as if you are enmeshed with her.

The child in you is clinging to an ideal of the relationship, and you think that if you keep going round, keep offering contact with your children, and keep caring for her, then she will come good.in the end. That she will eventually acknowledge that she loves you for you.

Your children love her because they are young. But how much longer are they going to love her now that they are being dragged into her emotional manipulation? Think about how she treated you as a child and an adult - the tantrums and tears and blackmail and blowing hot and cold. That's what she's now starting with your children. Your DS didn't want to hug her - she knew that. So she deliberately separated him from you to get her own way - and he's now learned that if he doesn't cave in and do want Granny wants, that she will push and push and push until he gives in.

This is a totally unhealthy dynamic. She sees you as a possession - as an extension of herself. Hence why she insists that you dance around doing her paperwork and admin despite there being two capable adults in her household. In her mind your thoughts, feelings and wants and needs don't matter - they are irrelevant because she views you like she would a piece of furniture. You belong to her and therefore exist to be picked up and out down at her whim. And like all capricious people, she's more keen on you when she sees someone else taking an interest, because she sees that as someone infringing on her territory. Selfish people don't share. And your children are further extensions of her - she doesn't view them as separate people with needs of their own.

I think your sister has nailed her dead on; she is toxic and cutting contact sounds like it would be the most sensible thing you could do for your own mental health, and for the benefit of your children. She will never give you the relationship that you want because she's incapable. And whilst that might not be her fault, it's not yours either - and it certainly doesn't mean that you are obligated to offer yourself and your kids to her as playthings to keep her occupied.

You have allowed this to go on for far too long. You were your DF’s carer in her house, well ok. But since your DF died your DM has remarried. That cannot have happened overnight, and was your big chance to change the dynamic. Then, with the after school business - when you saw it wasn’t working, you needed to pull the plug. Look at yourself, OP, and for your children’s sake get some proper boundaries.