To be very angry the government is lying to us.

[user1468867871]

Followers of Professor Sikora ( head of Rutherford Cancer Centres) were shocked when he revealed last night that the government has been lying to us. They have been hugely inflating numbers of people dying from COVID. They have been trawling the database of dead people and anyone who dies and has had a Covid test is being recorded as dying with Covid. This is because they seriously over estimated how dangerous the virus was at the beginning. Cancer patient have been denied treatment, children missing education and millions unemployed because the modeling was wrong and they’ve doubled down.
mobile.twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1283851195396902912

@ExclamationPerfume

I know two people who have died. One had lung cancer and one had a heart attack. Both their deaths were recorded as dying with Covid19. I absolutely believe the government is inflating the figures. The relatives argued over the death certificate but they were told it must go down as Covid19.

If they tested positive then they did die with it. That's not the same as them dying of it.

Same as FIL's death certificate has Diabetes in the II box as he'd had it for 20 years. He died of cancer and Alzheimers, but he still had diabetes.

@Viviennemary

I disagree with the way things have been handled. As regards to economy ruined, businesses closed, people denied treatment for serious illnesses, people denied dental treatment. It is madness

Where do you think people would have been being treated if we’d not locked down?

Even with the nightingales we wouldn’t have had enough beds or staff.

@userxx

Someone's grandmother died in a care home, COVID was stated as the cause of death yet she'd not been tested. How does that work?

In some cases it can be obvious. If the majority of residents in Mary's care home had COVID, then Mary (normally healthy, but old) got a high temp, a cough, lost her sense of smell then died it's a fairly decent guess that Mary also had COVID so recording "suspected Covid" on her death certificate is not fudging figures.

Especially when you consider how long it took for care home testing to get up and running. I bet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of the excess dementia care home deaths that are actually Covid related

The only number I look at is from the Office for National Statistics, showing excess deaths compared with this time last year. That was over 65,000 by the end of June.

That is excess deaths from all causes. Covid-19 didn’t cause each death, but the huge number stems from Covid-19 in that operations have been postponed, treatments delayed, drugs not prescribed etc because the NHS had to focus on the pandemic.

Also lockdown exacerbates many mental and physical health problems. So do unemployment, bankruptcy and other results of the economic disaster. All stemming from Covid-19.

Useful info here:
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/analysisofdeathregistrationsnotinvolvingcoronaviruscovid19englandandwales28december2019to1may2020/technicalannex#quantifying-non-covid-19-excess-deaths

You can examine and compare excess deaths across different countries using these visualisations of EuroMOMO data:

www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/07/15/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries

The data is here: github.com/TheEconomist/covid-19-excess-deaths-tracker

Karol Sikora has his own agenda and I would want other, unconnected sources before I took what he said as truth.

Of course the Government are lying to us - surely everyone knows that’s what this Government in particularly excels at - but Sikora’s alternative facts are not the truth either. The excess deaths figure from the ONS cannot be fudged. I agree with you that it is awful that people are not getting the treatment they need, losing their jobs and kid’s education and wellbeing is suffering and we need to think harder on these issues - Covid is not the only killer out there.

Ya u to think this government doesn't lie about anything.
They are morally bankrupt.

A medical certificate of cause of death doesn’t require watertight 100% conclusive evidence of cause of death. It is what the person certifying thought was the most likely explanation for their death, supported by the evidence they have available. If there is reasonable doubt, it goes to the Coroner for discussion / inquest / post-mortem. That’s not unique to Covid.

The way medical certificate of cause of death is formatted requires 2 parts - part 1 gives direct cause of death (and can have several parts if there is a sequence of events leading to the death). Part 2 are conditions that are thought to have contributed to the death but not directly caused it.

So you might have:

1a) severe acute respiratory failure
1b) Covid-19 disease

2. Alzheimer’s dementia

for someone who actually had pneumonitis as their last illness.

But if someone with dementia has a positive test but mild symptoms, goes into hospital and then dies from their dementia a couple of months later

1a) frailty of old age
1b) Alzheimer’s disease

2. Covid-19 disease

because you can’t rule out that the covid somehow contributed to their death by making them more frail.

Many people try to be as detailed as possible - so differentiate between “Covid-19 disease (proven)” and “Covid-19 disease (suspected)”.

If there is a positive covid test though it has to be declared, because it is a notifiable disease (like measles, TB etc etc).

My mum was taken into hospital last week with a stubborn UTI. 48 hours later she was dead. No fever, no cough and no other symptoms. Just went downhill very suddenly overnight. She was 67.

Cause of death on the preliminary death certificate is COVID. Not tested for it.

So much crap being spewed out at the min, it's exhausting

If you follow the thread to twitter, some of the people commenting don't seem to be the nicest of folk.

And as above, if someone is in the middle of a proven outbreak with classical symptoms (fever / cough / anosmia), and dies from respiratory failure, it would be reasonable to put Covid disease into Part 1 without a positive test.

If no test is done then they are not included on the government figures.
www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-information-for-the-public

Surely if the effects of covid 19 can be lifelong for some people, then surely if you die 3 weeks after having a negative test - then surely you cannot really say that covid 19 was not the cause?

@user1468867871

So OP, do you fancy asking MNHQ to change your thread title due to the de-bunked qualifications of the source of your statement?

How do you explain the excess deaths then OP? What caused 45000 more deaths than expected?

It depends on what the most likely explanation for what caused their death is - in your professional judgement.

If they had a positive test as part of a screening programme and 3 weeks later died from a brain haemorrhage after being hit by a bus, Covid is not the cause of their death.

If they had proven Covid disease and died next year from a bacterial pneumonia off the back of chronically damaged lungs, I would put Covid in Part 2.

If they had no proven Covid test it would be a case review of all the circumstances and if in hospital of imaging / blood tests and possibly a post-mortem if it was very important to establish cause of death with certainty after a discussion with colleagues and the coroner.

The ONS excess deaths figures are different from the ONS Covid figures are different from the government figures because they count different things.

I don't think this is a big conspiracy.

In the rush to get data published in a daily basis, it would have made sense at the start to do a simple link between positive tests, and deaths, and the information that provided would have been accurate enough.

As time goes on, it becomes increasingly less accurate, as someone who tested positive 4 months ago is most likely not dying even "with" covid now, so they will need to revisit the methodology they are using.

Someone should have probably done something about this a couple of months ago. I don't think it's particularly sinister that they haven't though.

65 is not particularly elderly though?

One of the epidemiological definitions of premature death is dying before the age of 65. Others use dying before the average age of death for that country, which makes things more complicated.

It is not 'debunked' NotEverythingIsBlackandWhite - look at Sikora's source material, which is the work of professors at Oxford's Centre for Evidence Based Medicine. Have a look at Carl Heneghan's twitter feed, which is where this material comes from. Prof Heneghan is Director of Oxford's CEBM.

News just in.

Hancock to order an urgent inquiry into PHE and gathering of data due to recording of deaths of Covid-19 with positive tests of more than 28 days.

Sikora - was quoting a report from somebody else that has long been working on concerns from families.

Matt Hancock now also ordering an urgent review into this but people on MN would rather poo poo information because it was retweeted by someone they dont like. Normal behaviour

@BakedCam

News just in.

Hancock to order an urgent inquiry into PHE and gathering of data due to recording of deaths of Covid-19 with positive tests of more than 28 days.

Sikora - was quoting a report from somebody else that has long been working on concerns from families.

Yep, just seen on Twitter and on a tonne of other news sites.

@BakedCam

News just in.

Hancock to order an urgent inquiry into PHE and gathering of data due to recording of deaths of Covid-19 with positive tests of more than 28 days.

Sikora - was quoting a report from somebody else that has long been working on concerns from families.

Just saw this

Apparently england may be countIng the deaths differently to scotland Etc Due to the 28 day thing