To think that we are being forced into a cashless society?

[rockingthelook]

My parents really don't like to use debit cards, especially the contactless ones, however , due to C19 this seems to be the way forward? They like to take their money from the bank and use the cash rather than cards, really don't want to bank or pay for anything online because they don't trust it, but everything seems to be geared towards contactless. They had a walk today and wanted to buy a cup of tea from a takeaway cafe and couldn't, not only because the place wouldn't take cash, but the cards had to be contactless, and their cards aren't (they asked not to have this feature as frightened of them being stolen and used) It seems to be that the banks etc are using the C19 situation to force things through, my mum was even told by the cashier in the bank the other day to use the cash machine in the bank rather than get the cash over the counter because of the 'risks', fgs it's THEIR money, can't believe Age Concern/UK aren't all over this!

I didn't write the Fb thing btw😊

Ebay, depop and fb all allow selling using paypal)
PayPal charges a fortune - cash is free and the great thing about selling second hand stuff face to face for cash is there is no chance of a dishonest buyer trying to pull a fat one with eBay/PayPal when they already have the item.

@MotherMorph

Interesting that so many here are delighted that small scale tax avoidance may be effected by a cashless society. What about the tax avoidance we should really be concerned about (Amazon, Starbucks etc.) that has nothing to do with whether a business accepts cash or not

I also noticed this. A large proportion of MN think anyone paying, or accepting cash is avoiding tax. It's quite possible to pay with and receive cash as a legitimate transaction. Although I'm sceptical of places that only accept cash.
You could argue that Amazon and Starbucks are acting legally though, as they have just exploited some loophole that allows that.

A and S are no doubt acting legally, that’s my point and the root of the issue. Going cashless isn’t going to stop any of this because there are structural issues that people seem happy to ignore re. tax and instead focus on small business owners etc. as the problem. I’d rather we go after the legislation that allows large corps to behave in this way.

You can also transfer money by faster payments instantly, for free, when selling things and there's no risk of finding that the cash you've accepted is fake.

DP sold a bike and the buyer did the transfer on his phone while standing in our garage. Paypal is only good for remote transactions where the item is posted and this can be proved. Only a fool would use paypal to receive money from a stranger when an item is handed over in person. Ebay and Paypal are quite clear about this. But you can use it to send money between people you know for free, and safely, although it's easier to just do a bank transfer.

There's arguments for and against cash/no cash, but a big advantage of keeping your money in the bank is that it's safe, you can't lose it in a burglary or house fire. And as long as you follow the rules set out by the bank, the risk of fraudulent loss is almost nil. Most of those 'reasons' to keep cash are now obsolete anyway.

I think it's far better to do away with cash altogether and go more electronic now.
Times have changed people adapt for example cheques are hardly used these days now I remember people kicking off about not being able to use cheques any more when shopping.

I also think it's far more hygienic too gone are the gross days someone would lick their fingers and then handle the cash to be passed over to some poor worker 🤢🤮

Just think how much it will help customers and businesses alike
I'm all for it being electronic payments only I have only ever paid with cards or Apple Pay much easier specially with little children to keep an eye on don't need to faff with change etc and it's good to keep tabs on what your spending money on etc

Gift cards aren't an alternative to money in birthday cards because they expire (personally I don't think they should expire but that's for another thread).

Times have changed people adapt for example cheques are hardly used these days now I remember people kicking off about not being able to use cheques any more when shopping.

I hate cheques. I cant remember the last time I wrote one - probably 5-10 years ago- but some customers where I work still use them. It's a pain because you have to go to the bank (at least with cash you can potentially pass it on to pay someone else) and most banks have either closed the branch, or only open from 10-2 on Tuesdays and saturdays!
I think most of the customers who pay by cheque would most likely pay in cash if we didnt accept cheques.

Is there documented evidence that people have become ill from handling cash?

I’d rather we go after the legislation that allows large corps to behave in this way.

We are. There have been recent changes and a lot of Worldwide activity to try to deal with foreign tax avoidance using tax havens and low tax jurisdictions. We've been one of the most active nations to try to deal with these issues over the last few years. Trouble is that you need Worldwide co-operation, and that takes a lot of time and effort to get other countries to agree. The tax havens themselves aren't going to voluntarily give it up are they - most have nothing else hence why they're tax havens!

I’d rather we go after the legislation that allows large corps to behave in this way.

Don't forget sports personalities, pop stars, film stars, and random other slebs who also take full advantage of "living" in tax havens but earning the bulk of their money in developed countries like the UK.

We need to find ways to stop the likes of Lewis Hamilton buying his private jet via Isle of Man to avoid paying VAT on it.

We need to find ways to stop athletes threatening to boycott events like the Olympics or Commonwealth games unless they get a "sweatheart deal" with HMRC to exempt them from UK tax.

We need to find ways to stop pop stars having worldwide tours with dates set purposely to avoid them being resident in any particular country so that they don't pay tax anywhere that year.

It's not just big business that are tax evaders!

A large proportion of MN think anyone paying, or accepting cash is avoiding tax. It's quite possible to pay with and receive cash as a legitimate transaction.

But it's pretty obvious when a tradesman tells you they'll knock off the VAT if you pay cash after giving you a quote with VAT clearly added!

Or, as is also common, asking you to make out the cheque to their supplier directly instead of themselves.

Don't underestimate the amount of tax evasion in the trades and other cash based "black" economies. It's enormous. It's certainly not just about paying a friend in the pub a tenner to repair your puncture. There are builders etc who'll do a "cash job" for many thousands without VAT if you don't want an invoice/receipt!

I could understand the switch to contactless only in the height of covid19 but i think you should be able to pay by cash now. My mum always uses cash too.
I actually find it easier to budget with cash as I notice more when its gone from my purse!
I think banks have been trying to move away from cash for a while, but I think people should always have the choice. In fact i still use cheques for window cleaners, brownie / guide subs and at my DD small village primary school for trips etc.
Didnt think about the big brother tracking aspect of cards but pp are right I can see the data being used for marketing.

A friend at work paid £30k in cash to her builders. She was a bit nervous....but the cash price was irresistibly lower.

Also cashless societies alienate the lowest and most vulnerable in society. Abusers can track every penny on a statement, but they can’t track fivers hidden at a friend’s house. Hopefully cash will be like cigarettes, declining in use but do we actually want the government to totally ban it and remove all free will? Also sterling is used in many countries as a way of protecting one’s savings from bad governments and weak currencies, in the form of £50 and £20 notes stashed away in people’s draws all around the world. The UK earns interest on this cash sitting overseas, and everyday people in poorer countries feel safer as they know Britain won’t suddenly demonetise or devalue their savings overnight. Even after Brexit...

Lets not forget that it's not only celebrities, big business and dodgy builders who arrange their tax affairs in order to minimise the amount they pay.

I know that it's not as advantageous as it used to be, and that people don't always choose to work in a particular way, but the motivation for all those 'self employed' consultants who work in the city for £X hundred per day, of which there will be many on MN, is that historically a lot less tax is paid compared with being employed to do the same job.

Absolutely, I’d much rather we firstly target the wealthy and ask them to pay their fair share before we berate people who are (mostly) just trying to get by. Ofc all of this is inextricably linked with wage stagnation, rise in cost of living etc.

So much work to be done to make society equitable before we could even think about going fully cashless.

@Mrahcc

Absolutely, I’d much rather we firstly target the wealthy and ask them to pay their fair share before we berate people who are (mostly) just trying to get by. Ofc all of this is inextricably linked with wage stagnation, rise in cost of living etc.

So much work to be done to make society equitable before we could even think about going fully cashless.

My response was to @Badbadbunny. Edit button please!

@BarbaraofSeville

Lets not forget that it's not only celebrities, big business and dodgy builders who arrange their tax affairs in order to minimise the amount they pay.

I know that it's not as advantageous as it used to be, and that people don't always choose to work in a particular way, but the motivation for all those 'self employed' consultants who work in the city for £X hundred per day, of which there will be many on MN, is that historically a lot less tax is paid compared with being employed to do the same job.

Well you needn’t worry about that. I am one of those exact people you live to hate. Now have zero income, zero work and no government help at all.
HMRC and Covid has pretty much stamped us out. My company paid over a lot in corp tax as well as a fat sum of personal tax last year - it will be zero this year. I can’t get a job at Tesco (turned down) so I will live off my pension provision that was supposed to be for later - and pay no tax at all this year, but at least you can feel smug that can’t “dodge” tax.

Well you needn’t worry about that. I am one of those exact people you live to hate. Now have zero income, zero work and no government help at all. HMRC and Covid has pretty much stamped us out. My company paid over a lot in corp tax as well as a fat sum of personal tax last year - it will be zero this year. I can’t get a job at Tesco (turned down) so I will live off my pension provision that was supposed to be for later - and pay no tax at all this year, but at least you can feel smug that can’t “dodge” tax.

I'm sure that the big firms are now employing "permanent" staff on PAYE now instead of using contractors and personal service companies. Didn't your client offer you your old "job" under PAYE? If not, presumably they now employ someone else to do the work you did.

I hate cheques. I cant remember the last time I wrote one - probably 5-10 years ago- but some customers where I work still use them. It's a pain because you have to go to the bank (at least with cash you can potentially pass it on to pay someone else) and most banks have either closed the branch, or only open from 10-2 on Tuesdays and saturdays!

I don't have that problem with my bank... I can pay cheques by taking a photo of them with the banking app on my mobile - 2 days later it's credited. No trip to the bank/post office, no extortionate card processing fees, just a fee of 30p per cheque. Wish more people paid by cheque in my business! It's crap in retail though as it takes too long - remember standing in a long queue and a person in front pulled out a chequebook? You could feel the hate

I used cash for the first time in three months yesterday, to pay for car parking. Contactless/card/online is a lot easier, but these systems are not foolproof.

everyone should have two bank accounts with separate banking licenses, carry some cash and have some cash at home. You will look a bit of an arse if your chunkphone runs out of battery or your bank's systems fail (they do about once a month) and you have no cash.

Had to use cash at the pharmacy today... card machine not working because their phone line is down. Would have been stuffed getting my prescription from there if I hadn't had some cash on me. Next nearest pharmacy is 15 miles away.

I think it's far better to do away with cash altogether and go more electronic now.

And what happens to those people who for some reason or other can't get a bank account? The homeless?

I'm sure that the big firms are now employing "permanent" staff on PAYE now instead of using contractors and personal service companies. Didn't your client offer you your old "job" under PAYE? If not, presumably they now employ someone else to do the work you did.

Unfortunately you are showing your prejudice and ignorance and have swallowed the propaganda. My self employment has always been on the basis of project work that there would be no point in employing people to do as it’s too short term. I took the risk of this exact scenario. Clients have stopped their project work so they don’t need me so no-one is doing the work; but even before covid they were cutting back - outsourcing work overseas and giving it large consultancies. Don’t get me wrong, I am not expecting any sympathy, I know everyone loves to hate us contractors. I am just pointing out that the tax take will be lower, not higher. When work gets done in India we get zero tax here.

Unfortunately you are showing your prejudice and ignorance and have swallowed the propaganda. My self employment has always been on the basis of project work that there would be no point in employing people to do as it’s too short term. I took the risk of this exact scenario. Clients have stopped their project work so they don’t need me so no-one is doing the work; but even before covid they were cutting back - outsourcing work overseas and giving it large consultancies. Don’t get me wrong, I am not expecting any sympathy, I know everyone loves to hate us contractors. I am just pointing out that the tax take will be lower, not higher. When work gets done in India we get zero tax here.

So nothing to do with IR35 then. Glad we've established that.

As for the personal snide/nastiness. I'm an accountant and have many clients with personal service companies over the last 20 years since IR35 was introduced. I know plenty about it all. I've "lost" around 10% of my client base due to the recent IR35 changes, but every single one of those clients has been transferred into their prior client under PAYE. Around half my clients are still personal service companies despite the latest changes because they "passed" the IR35 contract/working practices review, ironically, many of them "passed" because they were very short term project managers, and they're still workings under PSCs outside IR35. It sounds more like your role has been impacted by other factors, such as offshoring, Covid etc rather than IR35 solely!

I don't have that problem with my bank... I can pay cheques by taking a photo of them with the banking app on my mobile - 2 days later it's credited. No trip to the bank/post office, no extortionate card processing fees, just a fee of 30p per cheque.
Lots of banks do this, and I pay in personal cheques like this.i asked the cashier when I paid the cheque in to the business account but there is a £500 limit.