to think this is actually racist?

[queenofknives]

I've had an invitation through my union to attend a 'focus group' for whites only. I think it's supposed to be some kind of anti-racism training. There is also a separate focus group for 'BAME' staff.

I don't feel comfortable about this. I am white, but don't want to attend a 'whites only' group, and I don't want to be divided from my colleagues who include black and asian women. We work together, we have always been a close team and, work-wise, what affects one of us affects all of us, so it makes no sense to split us up.

Is it unreasonable to feel this is creating unnecessary division? Splitting people into different groups depending on the colour of their skin seems actually pretty racist to me??? If I'm being unreasonable, can you explain why? I want to support my colleagues but I'm not at all convinced that this is the best way.

Magenta you said, "I knew he was married and assumed he was married to a black woman. He wasn’t. He is married to a white woman. So although he is my friend and I don’t have racist views, in that I treat everyone with respect etc I still made an assumption based on his skin colour. "

Do you think that your assumption was due to racism? Do you think that your friend was harmed by you assuming he was married to a white woman? If so, were you able to apologise and try not to make the same mistake again? I feel like these are normal things that happen in all kinds of friendships, especially when we're getting to know someone. He might have been married to a man - would it make you homophobic if you assumed he was straight? I would guess most people wouldn't give it much more than a second's thought after putting you right.

@Livelovebehappy You've got it the wrong way round there... The groups are dominated by white people and their opinions.

Backbackandforth. Please don't be aggressive or twist words. Please look up definition of inasmuch. How quickly this thread has derailed from a query into an attack! If the whole point of education is 'if you don't know, ask' what exactly is op doing wrong!

@trixiebelden77

I don’t think racism can have affected your life very much at all if you cannot grasp, even in the abstract, the concept of making an assumption based on ethnicity.

Are you saying you’ve never witnessed that happening to your myriad black friends and family? In fact not only have you not witnessed it, you can’t even imagine what it might look like?

I’m afraid that sort of obtuseness suggests it’s entirely possible there are issues with racism in your workplace.

Obviously I'm not saying that. I specifically said I have witnessed racism many times.

I asked a couple of pp to give an example or clarify what they meant by 'an assumption based on ethnicity' which is clearly not the same thing as saying I can't imagine what that would look like.

I'm not being obtuse in the slightest. You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.

@Squidwitch please don’t tell a BAME woman she’s being aggressive when she isn’t on a thread about racism.

Ok. You know my ethnicity? You assumed?

@Backbackandforth you really need to look up the meaning of “inasmuch” and admit you have made a mistake.

Miriel thank you. I will look at the resources people suggest and also do what a pp suggested and email the organiser with an open question.

Wilfully misunderstanding op's posts pissed me off. Op isn't asking whether racism exists, if she is a racist, whether anyone who defends her is a racist, she is ASKING whether people think a racially segregated focus group is right.

It’s not. There I answered.

Ya, like I use Instagram :(

@Squidwitch

Wilfully misunderstanding op's posts pissed me off. Op isn't asking whether racism exists, if she is a racist, whether anyone who defends her is a racist, she is ASKING whether people think a racially segregated focus group is right.

Thanks Squidwitch! Well this has been an education, of sorts :)

Maybe use your time not pretending to look up people who don't agree with you on Instagram to check their race...

What is your race Squidwitch?

No I have never thought that Asian women are or should be subservient, and no I don't think black teenage boys are any more or less threatening than white teenage boys. Do you???

yeah, we get it. You are perfectly non-racist. Are all your other white colleagues? Has it occurred that the actual point is to allow BAME colleagues to have safe spaces to discuss this, and a by product of this is the chance to get the non-BAME together to point out a few things.

You're making it all about you. Go or don't go but stop trying to justify it with "well Im not racist" maybe you really don't need to attend, but I'm betting at least one of your white colleagues does.

[quote Backbackandforth]@Squidwitch I had absolutely no need to your Instagram is linked to your username.[/quote]
Ummm...that’s a bit frightening actually. Do you make a habit of cyber stalking everyone you have a disagreement with on mumsnet?

Yes, I think once you've cyberstalked a stranger on the internet, the argument is lost.

You're making it all about you.

I know. I'm making my post with my question about my situation using my words and my time too! How dare I

I also work in a multicultural educational setting and am in a friendly mixed team where racism is openly discussed amongst us often. I'm not sure how useful segregated focus groups would be in terms of how we all relate to each other.

However I think that non-segregated groups that discussed unconscious bias against/ towards the young people of different ethnicities at our setting could be really helpful and productive.

I would find it very odd to be separated by colour from my colleagues.

On another note, I am white but not white English. People always ask where I am from, wherever they are from; I.e. a black person will ask where I'm from heritage-wise. Curiosity can be conversation, rather than racism.

What she is meaning is that you do not think you can learn from this as you do not experience racism and negative assumptions made on you because you are white

But that you might learn that actually you do make assumptions on others because they are not white the tiny little assumptions even if in your mind you think they are positive

@queenofknives

Magenta you said, "I knew he was married and assumed he was married to a black woman. He wasn’t. He is married to a white woman. So although he is my friend and I don’t have racist views, in that I treat everyone with respect etc I still made an assumption based on his skin colour. "

Do you think that your assumption was due to racism? Do you think that your friend was harmed by you assuming he was married to a white woman? If so, were you able to apologise and try not to make the same mistake again? I feel like these are normal things that happen in all kinds of friendships, especially when we're getting to know someone. He might have been married to a man - would it make you homophobic if you assumed he was straight? I would guess most people wouldn't give it much more than a second's thought after putting you right.

I never said to him I thought his wife was black it was just something I thought.

Earlier in the thread you said you didn’t know what someone meant when they said about making an assumption based on skin colour and asking for an example. The situation I described is an example. No I don’t think me thinking that was racism, as to me racism is derogatory behaviour toward a particular race but it does show unconscious bias.

Maybe unconscious bias is the wrong term. It just shows we make assumptions about things with no ill intent.

I think that non-segregated groups that discussed unconscious bias against/ towards the young people of different ethnicities at our setting could be really helpful and productive.

We have done some of this but I think it was too vague to be really helpful. It needs to be specifically related to actual groups we're working with I think in order to have the right impact. I am also just reading an article a pp linked, about the lack of evidence for the utility of unconscious bias training, so that has raised more questions for me. But I agree that looks like a way more fruitful approach.

@MagentaRocks

Maybe unconscious bias is the wrong term. It just shows we make assumptions about things with no ill intent.

I agree, we all do that. I think that unless it's on a particularly hurtful topic (assuming you've got children, e.g. when you're infertile) or it's a particularly stupid assumption (assuming that a woman couldn't be as good at maths as a man, for example) I feel it's not a massive problem in society. It's something that's just a part of getting to know people, we have all made assumptions about others and had them make assumptions about us. Sometimes we are also correct in our assumptions, so they can't always be bad!