to think this is actually racist?

[queenofknives]

I've had an invitation through my union to attend a 'focus group' for whites only. I think it's supposed to be some kind of anti-racism training. There is also a separate focus group for 'BAME' staff.

I don't feel comfortable about this. I am white, but don't want to attend a 'whites only' group, and I don't want to be divided from my colleagues who include black and asian women. We work together, we have always been a close team and, work-wise, what affects one of us affects all of us, so it makes no sense to split us up.

Is it unreasonable to feel this is creating unnecessary division? Splitting people into different groups depending on the colour of their skin seems actually pretty racist to me??? If I'm being unreasonable, can you explain why? I want to support my colleagues but I'm not at all convinced that this is the best way.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

I think it allows people to be more honest and more issues can be challenged

Cos white people have been doing such a bang up job of calling out racism and ignorance in all white groups previously?

I predict white people saying how it all make them feel bad and they didn't do anything and I grew up poor, I dont have privilege and black people can be racist too and etc ...with lots of sympathetic agreement and smiley head nods. Like it is in all white groups already.

So what are they doing for mixed race members of staff? Or have they not thought that far ahead?
I would be uneasy about going into these kind of segmented groups. The ideal is that we can all rub along together and speak freely amongst each other. This kind of division is not helping to foster that. All the more so if you are already very happily working together in a mixed group. What do your non-white colleagues make of it?

Perhaps they’re not going to ‘tell you’ about black people’s feelings, but explore your attitudes to issues surrounding race. You might be able to express how you feel about the segregation as part of the exercise. Could turn out to be a bit of a misguided idea I guess, but I can’t see how it could be called racist unless one group is actively disadvantaged by it.

YANBU and I wouldn’t go either.

I agree that what they did on the above mentioned programme was really good. More importantly it really reduced the students' unconscious bias. You could watch it and see what you think op
www.channel4.com/programmes/the-school-that-tried-to-end-racism

@Ilovefishcakes201

You’re correct that black people aren’t monolith but one think that’s true is they are all likely to have experience racism. Why do you need someone to tell about black people’s feeling? I’m not being a smart ass but it’s because some of your friends, family and colleagues are black.

So why do I need a stranger to tell me about my friends, family and colleagues? We have got along great for many years without needing any outside intervention.

I don't deny that black people experience racism. I have witnessed it many times and it has affected my life inasmuch as it affects people I love. But if my team at work is having a problem with racism (which it isn't as far as I know), that's a problem for all of us, because of the nature of what we do, so we need to deal with it as a team, with a shared understanding and strategies. I don't get how splitting us up is going to help.

Presumably since it is through your union, it is not required for your job/continued employment. So you would not be unreasonable to not attend if it makes you uncomfortable or you feel you personally have no need for anti-racism training.

Unless you are an expert on racism then it doesn't matter if you think it's the best way.

Don't go, if you feel so attacked by it but remember it's not about you.

So what are they doing for mixed race members of staff? Or have they not thought that far ahead?
My thoughts exactly. I’m British born but half brown, half white. I am basically white-skinned (pale olive) but with very Asian features so always get asked where I’m from, etc. The idea of having to pick a “side” in order to attend this type of training is just bonkers! Can’t see the benefit of reinforcing divisions like this tbh - we should all be learning from eachother.

Ok so what if it is an all white group of people saying they don’t feel they are privileged and it’s clearly explained to them what white privilege is they may learn something or they may choose to stay ignorant

An example an Asian women being subservient or being more wary of a group of teenage black boys than a group of white boys the same age both groups walking about with their hoods up trying to look like gangsters

We should all challenge ourselves

I have witnessed it many times and it has affected my life inasmuch as it affects people I love

Your Fucking joking 🙃 aren't you?... seeing racism has affected you the same as the people experiencing it?... what absolute shit

@laidbacklife

So what are they doing for mixed race members of staff? Or have they not thought that far ahead? I would be uneasy about going into these kind of segmented groups. The ideal is that we can all rub along together and speak freely amongst each other. This kind of division is not helping to foster that. All the more so if you are already very happily working together in a mixed group. What do your non-white colleagues make of it?

I wondered about this as well. And do they keep sub-dividing, saying well Polish white people have a different experience than English white people, and black people have a different experience than Asians... where does it end?

I haven't spoken to anyone in my team about it, wanted to clarify my thoughts first.

I have witnessed it many times and it has affected my life inasmuch as it affects people I love

Your Fucking joking 🙃 aren't you?... seeing racism has affected you the same as the people experiencing it?... what absolute shit

@waitingforthestan

I have witnessed it many times and it has affected my life inasmuch as it affects people I love

Your Fucking joking 🙃 aren't you?... seeing racism has affected you the same as the people experiencing it?... what absolute shit

You misread that. I said 'inasmuch as' - meaning that I'm affected when my loved ones are hurt, not that I am experiencing the same feeling or that it is the same thing.

Perhaps they’re not going to ‘tell you’ about black people’s feelings, but explore your attitudes to issues surrounding race

That's what the similar sounding training I went on whilst working for local Government involved. It was interesting although very unpleasant at points. Partly because we were all presumed to have a single common national identity as well as skin colour so that might have just been a bad facilitator.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to be part of a 'woman-only' group only, as sex is not relevant to the role we all do, either. I'm not saying that the women don't encounter sexist comments or attitudes but not within our team we don't, and we all treat each other with fairness and respect. If we were having a particular problem with sexism then I would want both men and women to be fully involved in that conversation so that we could deal with it as a team.

I think that's the point though, many women would feel more comfortable discussing sexism with a woman-only group as they would feel it was a way of sharing their experiences with people who shared those experiences.

That doesn't mean those conversations cease to be of benefit once a group is over, it just allows people the freedom and opportunity to discuss things openly and with less fear of judgement, especially alongside others in a minority or vulnerable group, then those conversations and learnings can be built upon afterwards in a wider setting.

I think you're taking it as an attack when people are challenging your thinking on this, rather than being open to learning or accepting that some people will find this a more valuable and less threatening way of discussing racism and how to tackle it.

As someone said, it isn't about you. Centring this around your own preferences is sort of showcasing why the organisers have chosen to offer a BAME group. Some people don't feel able to speak up about things if they are met with defensiveness and resistance before compassion and empathy.

I know you don't mean to come across that way but making it about you and your needs is really unhelpful.

@queenofknives do you remember that video of a guy giving an interview at home and his little kids barged in. An Asian lady came and got them out of the room. Loads of people assumed she was the nanny, in fact she was his wife! That was an assumption based on her ethnicity. If she had been white people would have assumed she was his wife.

@waitingforthestan

I have witnessed it many times and it has affected my life inasmuch as it affects people I love

Your Fucking joking 🙃 aren't you?... seeing racism has affected you the same as the people experiencing it?... what absolute shit

That’s not what “inasmuch” means. It means “to the degree that” or “in the context of” It doesn’t mean “the same as”

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Ok so what if it is an all white group of people saying they don’t feel they are privileged and it’s clearly explained to them what white privilege is they may learn something or they may choose to stay ignorant

An example an Asian women being subservient or being more wary of a group of teenage black boys than a group of white boys the same age both groups walking about with their hoods up trying to look like gangsters

We should all challenge ourselves

No I have never thought that Asian women are or should be subservient, and no I don't think black teenage boys are any more or less threatening than white teenage boys. Do you???

I don't think that way, and I do challenge myself often.

This is a scientist's view on the Channel 4 experiment [and why it's scientifically flawed]
unherd.com/2020/07/anti-racism-training-for-children-is-cruel/
and this
unherd.com/2020/06/facts-vs-feelings-in-the-blm-debate/

Food for thought

Waiting, you have misunderstood 'inasmuch' I think, op is not saying they experienced the same, they are saying they saw the effect.

[quote DrDreReturns]@queenofknives do you remember that video of a guy giving an interview at home and his little kids barged in. An Asian lady came and got them out of the room. Loads of people assumed she was the nanny, in fact she was his wife! That was an assumption based on her ethnicity. If she had been white people would have assumed she was his wife.[/quote]
This happens in reverse too. My brother (Asian) married a white woman and when they and the kids travel in many parts of Asia, many people assume she is the nanny, not his wife.

It’s more an assumption based on rarity of mixed race marriages in an area/region than ethnicity alone.

You asked for examples

Those are two I could think of that people are not even aware they have made those assumptions because it’s whats we have been feed over and over again through the media, books, films and so on

But good for you nothing to learn well done

onceuponatimeinsuburbia What did you think of the programme? The students learned a lot no?

Sounds like this could cause more division than understanding.