To want a better relationship with BIL, SIL and DNiece/Nephew and not know how to go about it?

[ConkerGame]

This is more of a WWYD. DH and I are starting to feel really down about our relationship (or lack thereof) with DH's brother and his wife, and consequently with DNephew (3) and DNiece (1).

DH and his brother aren't really close as there's a bit of an age gap but they've always got on and there's never been any fall outs or anything like that. We also both really like SIL and haven't had any falling out with her. They both appear to like us when we spend time with them - i.e. conversation flows well, everyone seems happy and relaxed. The main problem is - we hardly ever do get to see them! They host a family event once a year but that's for everyone in the wider family, so no quality time with them or with the kids. We maybe see them twice a year other than that and we've only met DNiece once since she was born

They live a 2 hour drive away and both we and they have a car. Since the children came along we have made it clear that we are very happy to fit in with them - so we're happy to do the drive to their house or happy to host them at ours if that's easier or happy to meet somewhere else that works for the kids. They have basically said a flat no to visiting us as the journey is too long for the kids and our house isn't big enough (we live in a flat in London). They also don't visit PIL often because of the journey. Fair enough, we're happy to go to them and their house is much bigger so they'd have plenty of space to host us, especially if it was just for the afternoon. There are no other issues such as illness, disability or money problems and their house is lovely so no embarrassment about that (and it's also very lived in so they're not just precious about the furniture!).

We tried waiting for invitations to their house initially (after invites to our place were turned down) but those invitations never came. So we then tried suggesting meet ups elsewhere/letting them know that we were happy to pop round for just a cuppa as we have other relatives and friends nearby too but they always have a reason why they can't. We tried saying "we'd really love to see you all, are you free any time in the next couple of months?" and they replied to say they were busy every weekend for the next 4 months!

We're not sure what else to do now. It's sad enough about the relationship with BIL and SIL but we're really getting down about not seeing the kids. They're the only children in the family so they're very important to us but we're just not getting a chance to build a relationship with them. We send them presents for birthdays, Christmas and bring them back gifts from holidays etc and we've started to send the odd video message during lockdown as they've said the kids can't really cope with video calls, so we haven't even seen them virtually. Any others ideas about how to build a relationship with the children? Or do we just need to wait until they're old enough to have their own phones/email addresses and we can contact them directly?

WWYD?

I would try letting them know you are going to be in their area and ask to meet up for a coffee etc. Nothing time consuming or expensive. Is there a place near them you could visit so it wouldn't look odd, a nice NT place or a niche shop.

Tbh it upsets me as well as my daughter. For years she was making spiteful comments about my (apparently dubious) parentage...my dead mother who was apparently a 'whore'..my brother...telling my children that they 'weren't going to be the eldest granchildren'...telling my children that I was a 'cunt'. She hadn't spoken to my dd for about five years..
Then...bang ...There's a baby and she is all sweetness and light and sending messages.....
You couldn't make it up....

oh gosh @IrmaFayLear that must have been very hurtful

I guess I should be thankful that we don't appear to be sidelined by anyone else, they seem to just want to spend time on their own or with a few close friends.

We have similar with our in laws. They don't even reply to texts most of the time or take weeks to do so. I think SIL isn't very keen on BIL's family and that's what drives it. I am due to give birth and don't expect to see or hear from BIL or SIL. I'm tempted not to bother even telling them the baby has arrived, might just leave that for PIL to do. PIL find them the same too, it is said. And DNs are 12 and 8 now.

@ConkerGame Maybe SIL was never close to her extended family - I’ve just realised I don’t actually know!

I think that says quite a lot. You don't know her well at all. Your DH and his brother have never been close

You may find the relationship improves when you have children. My relationship with one of my SIL's changed for the better when we had common ground of both having children needing amused in the school holidays.

We preferour friends to the majority of my siblings, they are more fun and do a lot more with us than my family. They also show a lot more concern especially in this climate.
I've met a number of only children over the years who said they always assumed families were ready made friends and were jealous. You choose your friends not your family.if I was you dont waste your time there will be far better people to invest your life with

lyralalala puts it much better than I did.

I agree with those saying be frank and put your cards on the table. Have your DH tell his brother that he wishes they had a closer relationship, and that covid has brought that in to sharp relief. Youd also like to have a relationship with the children as they grow up. Ask if you can spend more time together. Say you realise you have more flexibility than they do, so you're happy to do things on their terms. Perhaps start with suggesting that you'll spend the day/weekend in their area and could you treat them to a day at the zoo (or similar). It's a scary thing to do, as you open yourselves up to rejection, but otherwise you'll never really get things out in the open.

fair enough, that does sound exhausting. Do you hope to spend more time with family as the kids get older or are you not particularly fussed about a close family relationship?

1. It’s not about relationships, I’m knackered. I’m making a decision to have less to do in response to that. I just haven’t got the capacity in terms of energy and time. It’s not personal about the other person, although I would prioritise what little time and energy to the people I am very close to first.

1. Time spent doesn’t equate to a close relationship necessarily. I spend a lot of time with work colleagues that I am not close to, and families are no different.

1. You sound like you are entitled to a relationship with them. Why is that? You’re expecting them to conform to your standard of what a family should be like. Maybe they have a different view of what being in a family looks like.

1. If you suggest meeting somewhere you need to realise just getting out of the house to do something essential can be a military operation with two children those ages. Let alone getting to a family gathering at a time and place. Yet more to do and adding to the load.

You are looking at it just from your perspective, try putting yourself in their shoes and see what it’s like. You will probably see it not as a social snub, more as a practical matter.

Hello,

(Pre-lockdown) I was part of the 'busy every weekend for the next four months' brigade.

Are they involved in anything that would essentially rule out one whole weekend day? Like church leadership, sport etc because then it does become tricky to fit people in because any time that is 'free' you want to protect so you can just be together as a family.

Why not put a date in for four months time and then you will be in their calendar?

It's not personal to you...the people who we were seeing were exactly the people who we put in our diary four months previously.

Honestly, as the parent of two small children;

A heart to heart about it sounds exhausting
A card laying out your position sounds exhausting
A video call at bedtime, in the morning, after tea sounds exhausting
A day out at a NT place with two very small children will either be right up their street or their idea of hell.

You're comparing them to your friends with children who have time for you. Don't do it! They either have their own friends or they don't. They've already told you that they can't fit you in and you should respect that.

I'm not saying you're an awful couple or they hate you. They probably like you very well and have deep affection, but you're at very different places in life right now.

Thanks @myohmywhatawonderfulday . BIL works one Saturday a month so that does limit the time those weekends.

To be fair, we're probably coming across as losers with nothing to fill our time with but in actual fact we are very busy ourselves - both our jobs have long hours, we have lots of friends and we both take part in sport meet-ups numerous times per week, so we're not sat at home waiting for something to do! It's just that we prioritise seeing family so if we look ahead and see we have nothing in the diary with, say, my parents, we will re-jig things around so that we can make plans to see them. Time for me to realise that not everyone feels the same way!

I agree with previous posters that it’s probably a combination of your DH and BIL not being close before, so you’re not a priority for meeting up from their POV (and it probably is irritating to them that you’re only interested now they have children), and the lack of time/ energy with two small children.

For example, we have one child (aged 5) and live away from our families (in opposite directions). We also have friends we want to spend time with, and I have a chronic disease meaning I have less energy than most people (if I have a busy weekend, I need the next weekend to be a quiet one). So over a month we’d have a weekend where we see friends one day (not local but only 45 minutes away), a weekend where we see local friends with children for a play date, and a couple of quiet weekends where it’s just us and we take DD to a local attraction. We have a few sets of friends within about a hours distance, so we try to see one set each month.

We also have to fit in visits to family further away - sisters, PIL, aunt & uncle. Until last year we also did regular visits to my mum, which were very emotionally draining as she was ill. Now she has died, the visits are to slowly clear out the house before it’s sold - also draining.

The logistics of going anywhere with one small child also takes an effort, but it is easier than when she was younger, and your BIL & SIL have two small children to manage.

If a more distant (emotionally) relative suddenly started wanted more time with us, it would be an effort to fit it in, and they’d be a the bottom of the list, I’m afraid.

@Hazysummers sorry I didn't explain myself well. I didn't mean she doesn't help me out. I mean that I never ask her to. Its me that doesn't really want a relationship. I have my own family. I would never expect her to look after my kids

I can sort of see this from BIL and SIL’s point of view. There are various members of DH’s family that have never been close with him, in 7 years of being together I never actually met and then when we had children they suddenly wanted to play a huge part in their lives and I can’t help but feel a bit taken over. DH and I weren’t interesting enough for them for years but now we have children for them to play with they want to get involved.

And similarly to your BIL and SIL we have very small children, live several hours away, find it hard to travel with them and when we stay with relatives it’s generally a nightmare as they don’t sleep well in travel cots, can’t sleep in the same room as each other or us and it is very stressful. Likewise video calls always end up in one or both of them getting wound up, crying, tantrums over wanting to hold the phone etc.

I can definitely see it from your point of view too but having 2 small children close in age can be relentless and if they haven’t previously had a close relationship with you it is hard time to create that.

BIL works one Saturday a month so that does limit the time those weekends.

So that’s two weekends a month you can write off. One your SIL is going to be running around after the children single handed. I hope that the following weekend she gets a rest and BIL takes the bulk of parenting. So then there’s two weekends left that month. To be brutal, if that was us, you wouldn’t be a priority for spending time with either compared to others. Do not underestimate how knackered they are and I think you’re hoping that this will suddenly become like an American TV movie plot when everyone lives happily ever after in a lovely close relationship. Life isn’t like that, it’s messy and tiring and people view how much time they can invest in things differently.

You seem to have worked out that there are different perspectives on this now, and that it’s not necessarily about you at all. I do wonder why you assumed that it was a personal issue about you and why you seemed so determined that there’s a certain way people should prioritise seeing family above other people/use of their time. That’s worth exploring so that you have some healthy boundaries ready if you have DCs. Believe me you don’t know the kind of pressure and emotional blackmail that can get laid on to you once children are in the mix!

Honestly, I think that some of the pps here with small children are selfish and short-term thinkers.

I've got 4 young DCs, and both DH and I work full time so truly appreciate how exhausting it is.

But when someone says that it is "exhausting" to think of a sibling who cares for your family (and doesn't have any bad history) dropping a card offering babysitting or a Christmas gift, that's total BS - especially given you've clearly got time to post on MN.

It would take 2 mins to send a text saying "Thanks so much, we are so hectic right now and catching up is hard, but we greatly appreciate your gifts and the DCs also and would love to see more of you as they grow up". Or to say that life is busy but a night of babysitting is always appreciated, whatever.

I really dislike the "my little family" mentality on MN sometimes. It's so valuable for children to have these relationships in their lives, and makes a big difference to other family too. People above are saying that their friends are closer, but many friendships come and go with stages of life, and if anything happened to you, do you truly believe your friends would be the ones stepping up to care for your kids, or more likely the neglected aunt like the OP?

@ConkerGame, I wouldn't worry too much that they don't like you or want your company. It sounds to me like they are just in the throes of early years parenting and struggling to see beyond the tips of their noses, if they're anything like me.
At that stage, I really only saw my family and neighbours with children the same age because anything more was too much for me to manage. It didn't mean I didn't love my friends and family, just that I had limited capacity for more than very short, child-focused interactions.
If you want to meet up, suggest very specific ideas and accept they will probably say no. Don't take it personally.
Just be there by text for them, and as they emerge from the fog, they will say yes more often.
If you all have a good time when you see each other, it sounds like you're just not a very high priority for them at the moment. You can be offended, or just accept that families are like that and sometimes a couple needs to focus onwards for a bit.

Thanks @Minai that’s actually a really helpful eye-opener into what it’s like. I think this has all come about from mis-matched expectations from my own and DH’s childhoods and from seeing our friends interact with their families after children. We’ve got to understand that not everyone has the same outlook on family relations and that actually my friends were already close to their families before kids came along so maybe that’s the main difference.

Thanks all, it’s been an eye-opener. We’ll continue to send presents and the odd video message and keep our offers of help etc open. Hopefully over time the relationship will build, especially if we have kids too, and eventually we’ll probably move nearer to them to be nearer our parents, so that might help.

Thanks @Allfednonedead that’s made me feel a bit better about it all Reflecting on it, maybe we’ve been a bit impatient and haven’t truly understood the pressures they are under. I’ll dial it back a bit for now and who knows, maybe when we have kids I’ll be eating my words and complaining about the twice a year we have to see BIL and SIL as it’s too exhausting!

@ConkerGame I am so glad you are now able to see the situation from your in laws' side - this thread seems to have been helpful .

I just had to comment on your idea of video calling when the kids have gone to bed, in the evening. . This I think more than anything, shows that you have no idea what it is like to have a one year old and a three year old!

When they are finally in bed you collapse on the sofa and eat junk and try and stay awake for a couple of hours just to have a bit of relaxing childfree time. Either before you fall asleep or one of them wakes up!

You do not want to be chatting to relatives! OMG.

I really hope you can get a closer relationship in the future and that in the meantime you can relax more about it .

I think that showing interest in the dc is the way to most parent's heart. I would try to keep your relationship with the kids going by sending the odd postcard (May be of a favoured animal or activity the dc like) addressed to the dc saying "I saw this and thought of you". Remember events in the dc's lives and ring to ask how they went, like starting preschool or whatever. If finances allow, send a little activity pack with a note saying that you thought the dc might be struggling staying at home so much. Basically anything to show you are thinking about them.

In terms of visiting, I'd agree that asking to meet for an activity close to their house (ideally that you offer to pay for) is a good idea. If they say yes I'd try to give the parents as much of a break as you can e.g. see if the dd1 would be happy for you to run around a playground occupying them while their parents have a rest. Find things to chat the them about (questions like "what is your favourite animal/superhero/toy are good conversation starters for small dc).

Ha @Chamomileteaplease this is where it gets so confusing as our friends with kids have all been super keen for double-date zoom dinners! So hard to know what works for each couple. Maybe it’s because most of our friends only have one child so far? But some of them are still tiny babies so presumably not sleeping all that well!

We would honestly go with whatever BIL & SIL suggested, whether it be calls, visits, texts, videos, day trips out etc. The only problem being they reject our suggestions and don’t make any back of their own!

But general points taken on board - we don’t understand what it’s like so should stop making suggestions as it seems to just be putting pressure on them which is something we definitely don’t want to do. Hopefully if we give them a long enough break they will suggest something.

this is where it gets so confusing as our friends with kids have all been super keen for double-date zoom dinners!

There's a difference between catching up with friends and catching up with family, and certainly a difference with catching up with family you wouldn't normally catch up with

When mine were little I could have caught up with my mates looking like shit, I could have cancelled last minute without guilt, and I could have yawned and bailed out halfway through when the baby kicked off without worry. I couldn't have done that with family I didn't know brilliantly well.

Tiny babies are easy to take to a friend’s house for dinner, in comparison to a 1 and 3 year old. They’re mobile for a start, so you have to watch them continuously and have stuff to keep them fed and entertained. It’s constant. You’re comparing apples and pears there!