The end of free speech?

[Ori37]

We seem to be moving towards a culture of criticism which is so prevalent it's threatening to end freedom of speech and honest opinion. You can't post anything on Social Media without your comments being immediately perceived as purposefully hostile, and individuals are torn to shreds for the most innocuous things.

Jokes or light-hearted attempts at humour are taken literally. You only have to read a few threads on MN for examples. People are so busy troll-hunting they forget why they signed up in the first place.

Are people really so easily offended and quick to anger? If not, what is this new and emerging trend to attack and publicly denounce people who have no obvious malintent whatsoever? Where is the critical objectiveness, the desire for good, honest debate? It seems to have been replaced by the immediate desire to apportion blame for imagined insults.

What concerns me is the root cause for this hostile culture. People seem angry, and dissatisfied on a deep and collective level. There's an article in the news today about public figures who have signed an open letter denouncing the restriction of debate. It makes interesting reading.

Individuals can easily lose their jobs for saying something on Social Media that is taken the wrong way and wasn't meant to cause offence, academics and professionals are called into disciplinaries for quoting the wrong thing, places like MN which should be a safe space for a lot of parents to sound out their concerns and give advice are increasingly under threat by this hostile culture.

Whatever you say, however you say it, whoever you are, there will be someone who takes your comments personally, or reads bad intent where none was meant - despite the fact that in the majority of instances, it's blatantly clear that comments are innocent.

I'm all for a healthy, robust debate, and don't mind being disagreed with. But nowadays people forget the "debate" part and replace it with personal attacks, and things very quickly escalate into petty insults being flung. Original requests for help are ignored, the focus slips onto a perceived insult, hostile exchanges are undertaken, more individuals jump on the bandwagon and there it is, the demise of free speech.

AIBU to wonder where this will end up? What do you think? (No insults please! I'm not insulting anybody.)

With all due respect, I don't need reading materials on racism. I've had enough real life experiences to know its not getting out of hand and instead things aren't being as tolerated anymore because people are speaking up. You know, using their free speech

Regarding white teachers staying away from campus this is in relation to Evergreen College in the USA. This is a fascinating rabbit hole and it illustrates some of the issues that arise when SJW politics gets out of control.

I would LOVE to hear from those who think that problematic speech should be policed.

I do not agree with many of the things that Benjamin Boyce says or his critiques of many topics but this is a MUST for anybody who wants to understand the dynamics of what is happening in the world in 2020.

What you are describing - a willingness to criticise things people have said - seems to me an expansion of debate rather than a shutting down?

Potentially, yes, but what if that "criticism" involves telling someone "you can't say that" and the suggestion that the speaker will be tied up in a whole lot of trouble if they continue?

In a case where nothing's been said that any reasonable person would find offensive, would that still be "an expansion of debate" or does it become something else?

However, the people hurling that abuse are technically doing it under their "free speech" so it's a bit of a grey area

I suppose some of the more serious abuse might be considered to be grossly offensive under the Communications Act so would not be covered by freedom of speech. It's interesting that the majority of the accounts telling JKR to suck their dicks or posting porn are probably anonymous accounts and therefore they will (99.9% of the time) be free from the consequences of their behaviour. "Freedom-of-speech-is-not-freedom-from-consequences" only really applies to those brave enough to post using their real names.

See from 3.54 for a run down of white professors staying away from campus

I would LOVE to hear from those who think that problematic speech should be policed.

I don't think speech should be policed or censored. But as has always been the case there are repercussions for certain things that are said and I think nothing is wrong with that. It's hypocritical to go on about wanting free speech but then being annoyed when people use their freedom to react to it negatively.

With regards to cultural appropriation,.

I think that drag queen culture is an appropriation of womanhood. I think that it is similar to black face. This is a controversial analogy but I have yet to hear an argument about why men pretending to be women is less offensive than a white person pretending to be black.

Why is one form of cultural appropriation OK and the other a taboo? Does the relative oppression that gay men face make it acceptable? I appreciate it is a part of gay male culture but does this mean that all criticism is homophobic? I am bisexual myself, am I allowed to be offended? What about my mixed race girlfriend? She hates drag more than me and thinks the blackface analogy is spot on. Who get's the right to call out cultural appropriation?

"Freedom-of-speech-is-not-freedom-from-consequences" only really applies to those brave enough to post using their real names.

Well, yeah. I think that's pretty obvious which is why people making threats use fake names or anonymous accounts. It's quite naive to assume that you can say anything under your real name and it not come back to you.

GreytExpectations

The Halloween costumes scandal occurred at Yale. It’s well publicised.
Bret Weinstein and his wife Heather Heyling lost their jobs at Evergreen over his refusal to partake in a mandatory day of absence.
I’m sure the girl with the prom dress (can’t remember when exactly it was but the case has been discussed many times) will know better than to post a picture of herself on Instagram thinking she looked nice.
On taking the knee: www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/formula1/austrian-grand-prix-six-drivers-take-a-knee-stand-weraceasone-leclerc-verstappen-lewis-hamilton-a9602846.html

I am sure you are aware that not everyone is ‘educated’ on current definitions of racism as defined by current race ideologies. Not everyone understands why it’s ok for someone to post ‘Abolish Whiteness’ on Twitter (you can even get a promotion for it) but cultural appropriation is racist.

Who get's the right to call out cultural appropriation?

I think the culture being appropriated has the right to call it out. You make a fair point about drag, are there many petitions and discussions happening around it being offensive to women? I've not personally seen much mentioned on it compared to the amount discussion and justified anger around blackface and I think it's simply down to the amount of voices raising it as an issue. Seems like not that many people have an issue with drag which is why it's not being called out. I personally don't watch it so can't give a more detailed opinion. But is drag impacting women? Again, I'm not being goady I'm just looking to understand how damaging it is to women compared to how damaging black face is.

“There is freedom of speech, but I cannot guarantee freedom after speech.”

This is a quote from Idi Amin and it very much reminds me of what is being stated by certain members of the left right now.

If you say unfashionable beliefs then you can loose your job and your friendship groups. You are punished, not with jail but social and financial ruin - which is what jail does.

I think the culture being appropriated has the right to call it out.

Can women call out transwomen for appropriating their gender based culture - for their literal sex?

TheRealMcKenna

I don't need you to link me to the taking the knee article, I know about that. But you didn't answer my question on where it originated from. Once again, are you aware of that or do I need to find a link for you?

The difference is that white people haven't been oppressed for over 200 years because of the colour of their skin. They don't deal with systemic or institutionalised racism part of which cultural appropriation is a part of. The issues are bigger than white people not being able to dress up as a Chinese girls. I read about the Halloween costumes and honestly, there are so many instances of students dressing offensively that I can understand the view point.

Any reason you have not responded to my direct answers and instead keep giving me resources I don't need?

Can women call out transwomen for appropriating their gender based culture - for their literal sex?

I think you are stretching quite a bit here. Since when was gender considered a culture?

GreytExpectations Apologies, I didn’t realise you were asking me whether or not I knew where ‘taking the knee’ came from. Of course I do. I understand the history behind Colin Kaepernick’s actions and the consequences on him for it.

What other questions did you have?

I've not personally seen much mentioned on it compared to the amount discussion and justified anger around blackface and I think it's simply down to the amount of voices raising it as an issue.

I think this strikes at the heart of the issue. We live in a society in which a very small group of very powerful oligarchs control the media and can sway public opinion. It's a form of populist mob rule which is top down. It's why certain groups are protected and others shunned. Women's voices are silenced and shamed unless they follow a certain script - one which social media giants like facebook shape with their 'community guidelines.' We don't have free speech for women our feelings don't seem to count unless we parrot a particular narrative

@TheRealMcKenna

GreytExpectations Apologies, I didn’t realise you were asking me whether or not I knew where ‘taking the knee’ came from. Of course I do. I understand the history behind Colin Kaepernick’s actions and the consequences on him for it.

What other questions did you have?

I think given the context of taking the knee I don't agree with their reasons for not wanting to join in on it. It's a gesture that means a lot to the movment and its a bit odd that white people would have such a strong opinion against it. But as they have freedom of speech they are entitled to not do it all they wish but on the flipside people are entitled to judge them for it. I didn't have other questions. It just seemed odd that you asked me specific answers and then made no comment on any of them, including examples I'd witnessed.

I'm wondering, are you perhaps confusing cultural appropriation with cultural appreciation? There is quite a difference. I also think (and I don't mean this offensively) that it's easy for people to say calling out racism as "gone too far" when they haven't been on the receiving end if mico aggressions such as cultural appropriation or people being so against an innocent but mean gesture against racism.

Sorry typos meant meaningful* not mean

Women's voices are silenced and shamed unless they follow a certain script - one which social media giants like facebook shape with their 'community guidelines.' We don't have free speech for women our feelings don't seem to count unless we parrot a particular narrative

Same exact thing has been the case for BAME voices.

Can you give us your top ten examples of people who’ve lost their jobs over innocent comments taken the wrong way?

I suppose it depends what you consider to be innocent but here's a few to be getting on with:

Maya Forstater
Gillian Phillip
Sir Tim Hunt
Allison Bailey
Dr Mike McCulloch (investigated for liking tweets)
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne

I would love to know when there was a shift in attitudes to cultural appropriation- combining elements of cultures for various reasons, sometimes to facilitate trade, sometimes to grease the wheels when countries have been conquered, sometimes for fashion. From Empire Building Macedonians, Romans nicking Greek Gods (who were possible nicked,at least in part from the Egyptians), Christians borrowing ideas from antiquity victorians embracing culinary traditions from across the empire, Romans nicking Celts trousers eventually. Scientists nicking iconography from religions, authors nicking stuff from various belief systems to make their dollar. It used to be seen as a great mechanism for cohesion, when did it become a mechanism of separation? There’s so much of this going on historically it is genuinely difficult for any one culture to categorically prove that Almost anything is genuinely 100%theirs.

It’s a genuine question- I honestly can’t see when the sharing and adoption of certain cultural facets became an issue.

I'm wondering, are you perhaps confusing cultural appropriation with cultural appreciation?

I am not confusing it. However, I can understand why someone would without any malicious or racist intent.

The reason I missed your question is fairly simple. I have 6:60 vision and use a screen magnifier on 500% magnification plus enhanced text. Sometimes I miss things.

I admit to not being able to understand what it’s like to be on the receiving end of racism. In much the same (but different) way I contend with ableism almost constantly. If I had a pound for every time someones’s asked “Can’t you try glasses?” Or “Can’t you have laser treatment?” I’d be very wealthy indeed.

Signalbox To that list add:

Alistair Stewart

Same exact thing has been the case for BAME voices.

WASP control of the media has marginalized non-white and non-male voices for many years. This is a historical travesty and I am glad that people are waking up to this problem.

But can you give me examples of black people being kicked off social media for defending their civil liberties in 2020?

Also, as an aside. Has anybody noted the way that drag culture appropriates black womanhood? So much that I see on RuPauls drag race seems like white men doing a parody of blackwomen. Racist and sexist.

Well, yeah. I think that's pretty obvious which is why people making threats use fake names or anonymous accounts. It's quite naive to assume that you can say anything under your real name and it not come back to you

So the people hurling abuse are technically doing it under their "free speech" so it's a bit of a grey area. And the people who use their real names are naive and should accept the consequences.

Makes perfect sense.