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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The end of free speech?

177 replies

Ori37 · 08/07/2020 11:52

We seem to be moving towards a culture of criticism which is so prevalent it's threatening to end freedom of speech and honest opinion. You can't post anything on Social Media without your comments being immediately perceived as purposefully hostile, and individuals are torn to shreds for the most innocuous things.

Jokes or light-hearted attempts at humour are taken literally. You only have to read a few threads on MN for examples. People are so busy troll-hunting they forget why they signed up in the first place.

Are people really so easily offended and quick to anger? If not, what is this new and emerging trend to attack and publicly denounce people who have no obvious malintent whatsoever? Where is the critical objectiveness, the desire for good, honest debate? It seems to have been replaced by the immediate desire to apportion blame for imagined insults.

What concerns me is the root cause for this hostile culture. People seem angry, and dissatisfied on a deep and collective level. There's an article in the news today about public figures who have signed an open letter denouncing the restriction of debate. It makes interesting reading.

Individuals can easily lose their jobs for saying something on Social Media that is taken the wrong way and wasn't meant to cause offence, academics and professionals are called into disciplinaries for quoting the wrong thing, places like MN which should be a safe space for a lot of parents to sound out their concerns and give advice are increasingly under threat by this hostile culture.

Whatever you say, however you say it, whoever you are, there will be someone who takes your comments personally, or reads bad intent where none was meant - despite the fact that in the majority of instances, it's blatantly clear that comments are innocent.

I'm all for a healthy, robust debate, and don't mind being disagreed with. But nowadays people forget the "debate" part and replace it with personal attacks, and things very quickly escalate into petty insults being flung. Original requests for help are ignored, the focus slips onto a perceived insult, hostile exchanges are undertaken, more individuals jump on the bandwagon and there it is, the demise of free speech.

AIBU to wonder where this will end up? What do you think? (No insults please! I'm not insulting anybody.)

OP posts:
derxa · 08/07/2020 19:00

98/99% of threads/posts on here that are deleted would N.E.V.E.R be deleted on any normal messageboard. MN are delete-happy and ban-happy and they are aided and abetted by a gang of spiteful and vindictive people whose aim is to silence dissent and different opinions. All it does is result in an echo chamber and people too afraid to comment on some topics because they don't want to face the ban-hammer for doing nothing more than state a view. This is very true.

Timekeeper1 · 08/07/2020 19:07

I suspect that's not the full reason why you got banned.

I completely and absolutely believe it. I was a member of two pro-choice facebook pages. On both of them, posters including myself were discussing if abortion affected men. People were there were saying men got pregnant and needed abortions too (transwomen). And a couple of them were arguing that pre-op transwomen should be allowed in women's spas. I visited that page one morning not long after and found that I was no longer able to post any messages on the page. Only read.

Similar thing on another Facebook page, pro-choice as well, when I stood up for a poster who made a statement of fact and I was bullied and attacked by the TRA agitator. A mod came on and stated that it's a trans friendly page, they believe transwomen are women, and they suggested people who didn't see it that way unfollow their page (which I did).

That is TWO Facebook pages that purport to be for 'women's rights', that I have been forced from. And I was quite respectful with how I put my views; clinical, unemotional, non-aggressive. The TRAs are truly a 'support the fact that transwomen (even pre-op where they have a penis and scrotum) are women or get out!' I was BLOCKED from one page just for saying that a pre-op transwomen shouldn't use a women's spa, for heavens sake! So, yes, I 100% completely and wholly believe DJLippy received a lifetime ban for no other reason than that. It happened to me also.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 08/07/2020 19:10

Some people are just not happy unless they’ve got something to be offended or outraged about. So they look for causes of offence in things that were obviously quite innocuously intended, and pounce on them with glee.
Sign of the times, I’m afraid.

As for people who think only white people can be racist, such naïveté and ignorance would be laughable if it wasn’t so lamentable.

Someone on here the other day mentioned the word ‘history’ (in a was-it-sexist? context) and said she thought it probably wasn’t, but the fact that it ever was imagined to be sexist and un-PC (and it was, some people said it should be changed to herstory) just illustrates what I mean about woeful ignorance.

Timekeeper1 · 08/07/2020 19:15

@GreytExpectations Re JK Rowling, how about this image that shows only several of the responses she got. Some from transwomen who call themselves women but use their penis as a weapon, by threatening rape. And these people are the ones who say pre-op transwomen are not a threat to women in safe spaces. Next thing, they are threatening rape and telling people to suck their 'lady dick'.
And they wonder why many women are so desperate to defend our identity as women and our safe spaces. They truly wonder why....

The end of free speech?
GreytExpectations · 08/07/2020 19:47

@Timekeeper1 I don't why you are telling me all that, I know what's happened and I already said the threats she received were uncalled for and I don't think she deserved them. Why are you insinuating I'm OK with them when I've said that I'm not?

GreytExpectations · 08/07/2020 19:48

Are you comparing lesbianism to racism?

Eerr no Hmm I am comparing homophobia to racism as they are just as bad as each other, did you even read my post?

PennyNotSoWise · 08/07/2020 19:52

timekeeper1 A similar thing has happened on a subreddit on Reddit, PCOS.

An innocent forum for women, trans men included, to discuss their PCOS, until transwomen (who don't have ovaries) took offence that the language being used (by women, referring to their own ovaries) wasn't inclusive enough for them.

Before anyone knew what the fuck was going on, the sub was set to private whilst the rules were conveniently changed in favour of men. When it reopened, a lot of posters were banned for asking wtf was happening. The people asking how PCOS exactly affects people with a penis were banned.

It's transphobic apparently for women to mention their ovaries. It's transphobic for women to refer to their sex when discussing a medical condition directly related to their sex. It's transphobic to note that men can't have PCOS. It's 'hate speech' and 'literal violence'.

A charming transwoman came on to the sub after reopening to tell women they should henceforth use the term 'people with PCOS', (being as woman is such a dirty word unless you're referring to transwomen), or even better referred to us as 'fucked-up ovary-havers.' Hmm

TRAs are currently sulking because the subreddit Periods has the word 'women' in the description box, and because there's a rule forbidding posters from referring to women by their body parts 🙄

DJLippy · 08/07/2020 19:57

The problem I see it with a lot of bans on offensive content is that it's really difficult to be even handed. Twitter allows a lot of violent and sexualised, misogonistic threats against women to stand but it gives lifetime bans for comments like "men aren't women". People often talk about a hierarchy of victims and if there is one Twitter is making very clear that women know they are at the bottom.

I think this is fueling a lot of anger because women can see it's unfair - everyone can see it's unfair. Thats the point. But I think this incredibly dangerous because it leads people into extreme positions where they think - if men can say what they like about women lets even the playing field and do away with all rules. This causes more marginal people at the bottom of the social hierarchy to recieve a disproportionate amount of abuse. I don't want to have to navigate a space filled with extremely offensive material. When I see "shut up terf" memes it makes me feel alarmed and distressed and it has a drip, drip, drip effect. It wears you down over time. I have recieved a ton of abuse and it has had a very corrosive effect on my mental health. I don't see how misgendering is in the same category. But maybe it is. Who is to decide? Until the direct abuse stops I don't think we should be policing small details - fix the big problems first

Stressing · 08/07/2020 19:58

I agree with you OP. I think the hostility has the effect of polarising views as people feel the need to defend themselves over something they didn't even mean in the first place, forcing them into a 'camp' they didn't want to be in.

Signalbox · 08/07/2020 20:12

A similar thing has happened on a subreddit on Reddit, PCOS

I just posted this on another thread. Seems that it's relevant here as well. It's shocking that women are not allowed to discuss medical issues that affect them without their language being policed. Honestly it baffles me.

twitter.com/krithika0/status/1280889930273546241

Jente · 08/07/2020 20:17

I think rightly or wrongly free speech is freer than ever. Anyone is able to broadcast their views to the world if not on Twitter than elsewhere.

The issue is the traditional gatekeepers of speech - news print and media no longer have exclusive access and feel threatened by this.

GreytExpectations · 08/07/2020 20:19

*JK Rowling getting rape and death threats for saying you can’t change sex. Do you find that to be an appropriate consequence?

Diane Abbott gets rape/death threats on a weekly/daily basis for having opinions whilst black.

Suppose that’s OK too by you?*

Of course i don't think it's OK, like I said in my posts. If you read them then you'd see that I clearly stated that the threats and abuse were not OK. Stop trying to twist my words.

Jente · 08/07/2020 20:21

Just adding I don't condone rape/death threats - that shit is beyond the pail.

ScrapThatThen · 08/07/2020 20:21

I think that threats and social media pile ons ARE stifling, because most companies or organisations take the easy route and capitulate to the mob. Everyone sees what happens and no one wants to be next in line so they hide their true opinion and this means issues are not debated effectively.

DJLippy · 08/07/2020 20:40

I think the issue is that if you have a rule like - sexism is not allowed then this applies equally to men and women in theory but in reality mens claims of predjudice are taken more seriously. For example women who state facts like "men commit 98% of sexual assaults" are treated as worse than "women are slags who lie about rape." The rules intened to address sexism against women are used to enforce sexism against women

ferntwist · 08/07/2020 20:43

My goodness @Timekeeper1 that’s outrageous that you were banned for saying pre-op transwomen (ie men with working penis and balls) shouldn’t be allowed in women’s spas. When is this madness going to end? It’s utterly bizarre.

TheRealMcKenna · 08/07/2020 20:45

GreytExpectations without trying to be offensive here, you do sound a bit naive.

You make the comment that it is perfectly acceptable for someone to be dismissed from their job for being racist, but how do you define racist?

Are we talking about Starkey here? Yep, definitely racist. What about refusing to ‘take a knee’? I’ve seen that being described as being racist. What about a whiter person wearing a Chinese dress to a prom?

If you don’t think the current discourse around racism is getting out of hand then I would suggest you do some research into events at Evergreen in 2017. Mike Nayna has done a very good series of documentaries on his YouTube channel about it. Alternatively, the Yale Halloween costume scandal is also worth looking at. There are lots of YouTube videos covering that too. Both caused ruined careers for academic staff for absolutely no good reason.

Dissimilitude · 08/07/2020 20:48

We are being utterly deranged by social media and the many-to-many communication networks driven by the internet.

And if I hear one more person say “freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from consequences”, I’m going to get...mildly irritable.

People hounding each other out of their fucking jobs and denying others the means to make a living for comments which even 5 years ago wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow, is not normal and it’s not sustainable.

I do think Wokeness has jumped the shark this time. Normal people are starting to pay attention.

PennyNotSoWise · 08/07/2020 20:49

[quote Signalbox]A similar thing has happened on a subreddit on Reddit, PCOS

I just posted this on another thread. Seems that it's relevant here as well. It's shocking that women are not allowed to discuss medical issues that affect them without their language being policed. Honestly it baffles me.

twitter.com/krithika0/status/1280889930273546241[/quote]
The thing that really pisses me off is that the sub had always welcomed trans men, who seemed to have no problem at all with the language being used.

It was transwomen, who are incapable of ever experiencing PCOS, that took it upon themselves to be offended and all hell broke loose. When the sub reopened a TW posted that they'd heard ''TERF's'' had turned up and tried to take over the sub Confused No such shit had happened. I'd been on the sub a while and had never seen any transphobia, no terfs, just women coming together to offer support to others in the same boat.

I deleted my reddit account after seeing the snarky update message from the mod with an obvious agenda, and let them know it was because Reddit clearly despises women, given that women correctly identifying parts of their anatomy=hate speech, yet subs promoting rape/incest/inappropriate pictures taken and posted of women without their consent=boyz will be boyz innit.

I'm terrified of the silencing of women that's happening, I truly am. It's scarier that so many people seem to be turning a blind eye to it so as not to offend anyone.

TheRealMcKenna · 08/07/2020 20:55

.....and on the subject of Reddit....

The end of free speech?
GreytExpectations · 08/07/2020 20:56

GreytExpectations without trying to be offensive here, you do sound a bit naive.

I don't think it's quite fair to call me naive TheRealMcKenna for not wanting racism to be tolerated in the workplace. As someone who has had to deal with racism since i was a child (in 2 different countries) I'm pretty sure I have a fair idea of what is racist. Its easy for white people to claim BAME are being too sensitive just the same as men can claim a woman complaints about sexism aren't valid.

trixiebelden77 · 08/07/2020 21:03

Can you give us your top ten examples of people who’ve lost their jobs over innocent comments taken the wrong way?

I always wonder what the people who ‘can’t say anything’ on social media without being ‘torn to shreds’ are actually saying on social media. I have had no problem at all posting on social media; what could be the difference between the contents of our posts I wonder?

TheRealMcKenna · 08/07/2020 21:05

GreytExpectations I think you’ve missed the point of what I was saying.

I’ll ask more clearly:

Is it racist for a white person to wear a Chinese dress to a prom?
Is it racist for university staff to reject the idea of policing students’ Halloween costumes?
Is it racist for a white teacher to not wish to be involuntarily excluded from teaching at their school for a day?

These are genuine examples which have led to either a storm of abuse at best or job losses and death threats.

GreytExpectations · 08/07/2020 21:23

Is it racist for a white person to wear a Chinese dress to a prom?

This is called culture appropriation and whilst it's not in the same league as blatant racism it's part of the structural and institutional racism that encourages stereotypes. I can give personal examples if you wish but I wouldn't consider that something that would need to raised to a workplace but it is in poor taste and I think people would be justified in critising that woman's choice.

Is it racist for university staff to reject the idea of policing students’ Halloween costumes?

This is worded weirdly. I imagine you think University staff shouldn't police student costumes? Well, depends. For example at my uni an entire sports group decided to go to the student union dressed as priests and tore up pages of the bible, they got kicked out and banned from playing the next couple of games. I think that was deserved and would think anything of that same level of offensive should be policed if on the university property.

Is it racist for a white teacher to not wish to be involuntarily excluded from teaching at their school for a day?

Would you elaborate on what this is in relation to? On its own I can't answer because it depends on the context of it.

I didn't miss your point at all, you did however claim that I don't understand racism which is a bit ridiculous as I've been a victim of racism throughout my life (i can give you specific examples as I'm sure you will tell me I was being too sensitive) but please do continue to tell me how I don't understand it.

GreytExpectations · 08/07/2020 21:28

What about refusing to ‘take a knee’? I’ve seen that being described as being racist

You mentioned this and I have to ask, do you know where this has come from? As in the story from the NFL a few years back?

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