The end of free speech?

[Ori37]

We seem to be moving towards a culture of criticism which is so prevalent it's threatening to end freedom of speech and honest opinion. You can't post anything on Social Media without your comments being immediately perceived as purposefully hostile, and individuals are torn to shreds for the most innocuous things.

Jokes or light-hearted attempts at humour are taken literally. You only have to read a few threads on MN for examples. People are so busy troll-hunting they forget why they signed up in the first place.

Are people really so easily offended and quick to anger? If not, what is this new and emerging trend to attack and publicly denounce people who have no obvious malintent whatsoever? Where is the critical objectiveness, the desire for good, honest debate? It seems to have been replaced by the immediate desire to apportion blame for imagined insults.

What concerns me is the root cause for this hostile culture. People seem angry, and dissatisfied on a deep and collective level. There's an article in the news today about public figures who have signed an open letter denouncing the restriction of debate. It makes interesting reading.

Individuals can easily lose their jobs for saying something on Social Media that is taken the wrong way and wasn't meant to cause offence, academics and professionals are called into disciplinaries for quoting the wrong thing, places like MN which should be a safe space for a lot of parents to sound out their concerns and give advice are increasingly under threat by this hostile culture.

Whatever you say, however you say it, whoever you are, there will be someone who takes your comments personally, or reads bad intent where none was meant - despite the fact that in the majority of instances, it's blatantly clear that comments are innocent.

I'm all for a healthy, robust debate, and don't mind being disagreed with. But nowadays people forget the "debate" part and replace it with personal attacks, and things very quickly escalate into petty insults being flung. Original requests for help are ignored, the focus slips onto a perceived insult, hostile exchanges are undertaken, more individuals jump on the bandwagon and there it is, the demise of free speech.

AIBU to wonder where this will end up? What do you think? (No insults please! I'm not insulting anybody.)

*if you google the pile on JKR has had recently there are some examples to be seen.

But as a rule this seems ok. I've not seen any consequences to those people. It's generally people who are defending women's tights who are attract the pitchforks.*

Yes that's been mentioned on here a lot and I'm aware of that so no need to look it up. I don't think the abuse JK Rowling received is justified at all. However, the people hurling that abuse are technically doing it under their "free speech" so it's a bit of a grey area. Jk Rowling received critism because she is in the public eye, the random twitter trolls are not. Whenever anyone famous states their opinion on a topical and controversial issue they will be opening themselves up to critism, that's just how it is and they know it. However, threats are just plain old bullying and shouldn't be tolerated but as I said they are technically free speech so not much can be done.

@Feckingirritated from what I heard on the news, Farage was removed from LBC because he said that the Black Lives Matter movement was led by the far left, by anarchists or Marxists. Is that true or not true?

There's a new station called Times Radio. A Jewish guest said that he's not happy that the Black Lives Matter movement have stated that accusations of antisemitism are used as a method of discrediting criticism of the state of Israel. Is BLM being antisemitic or is he being racist? Do you think that the average Black person is that interested in the state of Israel, or do you think that's more something that white anarchists or Marxists have been obsessed with for decades?

Anyone who makes claims of being offended or triggered is responsible for this mess

@araiwa

Anyone who makes claims of being offended or triggered is responsible for this mess

Don't think that's a fair thing to say at all. You really think that a black person shouldn't feel offended by a racist comment on social media? Or a member of the LGBTQ community shouldn't be offended by something that could be homophobic ect?

Maybe the problem are the people like you who seem to think it's OK to say offensive things and be suprised when people respond negatively to them.

Yes. 'Im offended' was used as a way to shut people up. This is the consequence. I blame them.

I dont say offensive things. But i can still see where this all came from

Also seeing the power of 'being offended' over people in shutting down any debate, led to people trying to exert further power over others

This is the modern book burning.
When speech is not free of consequences that is, for example, if I tell my boss to F-off and lose my job that would be a consequence for the speech. If however, I make a comment that offends a wokeist, and there are campaigns to deprive me of employment because of a comment that I made out with my employment, then that is where free speech is being eroded.
Expressing anti-racist views is now deemed to be racist. Let’s make a bonfire.

I think people should feel comfortable voicing their opinions, regardless of whether they are challenged on them. If you are confident of your arguement, then whether other people disagree is pretty much irrelevant. Unless the comments are linked to racism or inciting hatred which are of course criminal offences, we still have free speech. I get that people don’t like to be judged or bullied on their views, but that doesn’t mean you can’t speak freely if you wish to do so.

[quote jennywhitehorses]@Feckingirritated from what I heard on the news, Farage was removed from LBC because he said that the Black Lives Matter movement was led by the far left, by anarchists or Marxists. Is that true or not true?

There's a new station called Times Radio. A Jewish guest said that he's not happy that the Black Lives Matter movement have stated that accusations of antisemitism are used as a method of discrediting criticism of the state of Israel. Is BLM being antisemitic or is he being racist? Do you think that the average Black person is that interested in the state of Israel, or do you think that's more something that white anarchists or Marxists have been obsessed with for decades?[/quote]
LBC gave no official reasoning for his departure. An article in the Telegraph suggests it was due to comments where he likened BLM to the Taliban, which is clearly problematic, and I’d also suggest there are likely to be other issues at play which haven’t been made public.

I am neither black nor Jewish, so I have no right to speculate on your second point because it is not part of my lived experience. I do believe it is possible to criticise a State without criticising its citizens, and more care needs to be taken with language when discussing Israel.

You have every right to speculate. Don’t allow yourself to be silenced.

I support the BLM movement and have attended BLM protests. I also believe the statement released by one single group acting under the banner of BLM is racist against Jewish people.

It’s possible to hold both beliefs, just as it is possible to work on dismantling racism towards one group while simultaneously promoting racism towards a different group.

"If however, I make a comment that offends a wokeist"

"Woke" when used as an insult by the right usually means objecting to not being able to make racist, sexist or homophobic "jokes"

to use racial epithets like the N-word or P-word

to say "send them home" when British people from an ethnic minority do something wrong

to say women and girls "deserve what they get" if the wear skimpy clothes or get drunk when out, or just work for a groping pig of a boss.

TRA sIlencing of feminist debate is not because radfems call for all transwomen to be deported, or call them names

JKR - and other GC feminists - have only stated biological fact, usually in the kindest possible way

As far as damaging careers:

If you publicly express an opinion that is against the principles of your employer, you may face consequences

• but that's always been the case

e.g. criticising China's human rights record - which is an appalling one - when your company is trying for a big contract with them,
working for a tobacco firm and saying that smoking kills,
working for an oil company and criticising oil extraction for environmental damage

Social media is the modern equivalent of standing on a soapbox with a megaphone
it really isn't like saying things to your friends
So make sure your employers name isn't on your media if you post something you know is against their media policy

@jennywhitehorses I don't think that wanting to be called a "cis female" or a "that menstruator" or wanting safe spaces for women to remain for women to be really even feminist, let alone 'radical' feminist. To me, it is basic common courtesy, common decency and common sense that women AND blokes would agree on. Since when did base-level common sense become 'radical'?

Even on MN the “report” facility must have increased.a million per cent of late.

If anyone dares to criticise a specific teacher they are ripped to shreds and along comes a supportive mob. I’ve seen people use an outmoded special needs term (not an old insulting one, just a recently-replaced term) and be vilified. Constantly people try to get the Meghan & Harry threads deleted.

Of course nasty posts should not be allowed to stand, but it seems lately as if there is a pitchfork-wielding mob stomping over the threads seeking out offence and acting as a private militia ensuring some subjects are off limits.

MN is a private site that sets its own rules
They are also a commercial organisation, who live or die via ads

So they can delete or ban whoever they choose

If MNHQ convert to e.g. veganism or Evangelical Christianity, they can ban all of us whose posts break their new rules

Certainly on mn there are posters who are professionally offended by innocuous comments.

Example in this thread from a few days ago;
Op; I have just bought my own house but feel very lonely living here alone. Some days I feel like a little old lady with no friends. Has anyone else felt like this?

2nd reply; I find your post offensive. It's ageist and misogynistic.

Didnt see this worry when the labour party was being strangled with bullshit.

Those complaining about a "mob" usually don't like being in a minority in a debate
whether they claim MN is transphobic or leftwing or whatever

Freedom of speech does not mean listening without criticism

MN is mostly young & overwhelmingly female

• which is a demographic with views on average very different to those who feel more at home on the Telegraph, Mail or Express sites.

However, there is a lot of media choice across the political spectrum for those who are uncomfortable on MN,
or who want to post against MN rules

I think it's worse in the UK than in other countries at the moment. You can't say that certain people aren't women, and judging some of the threads on here even asking a question is beyond rude because people don't know how to say "no". It's ridiculous. There needs to be less politeness and less pandering to peoples offended feelings. Sometimes they will just have to deal with it.

Constantly people try to get the Meghan & Harry threads deleted.

That’s not true. It’s the open racism and bullying that pp object to. All the attempts to derail threads and get then deleted have been from the Meghan bashers, to censor dissent and hide any evidence of their lies and bullying being called out. They deliberately derail their own threads rather than engage with different opinions, and so they can play the victim and pretend they’re being censored.

You’re absolutely right OP. As for the posters asking who is affected, it’s happening to all sorts of women. Allison Bailey, victimised by her barristers chambers for helping found the LGB Alliance. Maya Forstater sacked for saying biological sex exists. Germaine Greer and countless other feminists banned from university campuses for their views. Death and rape threats daily for JK Rowling. It’s terrifying.

Excuse me, BigChocFrenzy, are you suggesting that older posters should jog off and leave the site to “the majority” ? That does not sound like someone who enjoys debate but someone who wants to kick out those with differing opinions...

As for MN, I feel it does foster a 'witch hunt' culture via it's reporting. MN encourage you to dob on each other. Then, they use that as a defence for suspending/banning. E.g A controversial issue a few months back where the issue was about abortion/Down Syndrome. Posters on there were policing people's comments and reporting everyone who had a certain view. MN used to excuse to suspend saying 'we received many reports' (like as if receiving 'many' reports makes their decision stronger/more valid) and people found your posts offensive. So they suspend you. Which means, in effect, anyone can gang up on someone with a different view, claim to MN they were 'personally offended', and get you suspended or banned.

MN is a great place but their encouragement of reporting against each other for no reason other than someone is 'personally offended' and not even truly breaking the guidelines encourages a toxic climate and gives a playground to spiteful and vindictive bullies. I hate reporting people, I see zero need for it unless it's for racism, death threats etc.

The messageboards I come from before this one all rarely if ever delete anything or suspend anyone, it has to be something truly catastrophic or serious to get a deletion/ban. 98/99% of threads/posts on here that are deleted would N.E.V.E.R be deleted on any normal messageboard. MN are delete-happy and ban-happy and they are aided and abetted by a gang of spiteful and vindictive people whose aim is to silence dissent and different opinions. All it does is result in an echo chamber and people too afraid to comment on some topics because they don't want to face the ban-hammer for doing nothing more than state a view.

Death and rape threats are a grey area? Ok.

A current example which has enraged some on the right to rail against "the woke":

The prominant historian David Starkey lost several prestige apppintments after broadcasting :

"Slavery was not genocide, otherwise there wouldn't be so many damn blacks in Africa or in Britain, would there?"

"Genocide" is by definition the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.
So he's made a factual error too

What if he had instead said:

"The Holocaust was not genocide, otherwise there wouldn't be so many damn Jews in Israel or in Britain, would there?"

Either statement rightly has severe career consequences, when made in public by an expert historian
(very different if he'd made it in private at a drunken dinner party)

Some unis decided to remove his professorship and honours to show to their students & public that these views are unacceptable to them as an employer,
or as someone granting uni honours

His publisher exercised their commercial freedom to reject a client whose views they found abhorrent

All of which is totally different from being censored, fined or imprisoned by the state