What do you think of this idea of a wealth tax?

[LuluJakey1]

This is from The Guardian this afternoon. It is the third article I have seen in the Press two days promoting this idea.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/06/arts-wealth-tax-rishi-sunak-nhs-public-services?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Personally, I think it is bonkers. She seems to be suggesting that ALL wealth in this country - houses, savings, pensions, shares/paintings etc should be subjected to a one off tax of 10% to get us out of the financial mess.

DH and I would have to find about £80,000 cash! We'd have to sell the house?

Yes- Yes it is a good idea and you are BU to criticise it.
No- It is an awful idea and you are right to criticise it.

Here’s an idea. Instead of paying by «productivity», whatever that means for a senior advertising executive for instance, we could pay by social value of the role. Not coincidentally this would also put women at the top of the money tree.

When DS was choosing his options, we had a series of careers evenings with talks from Universities.

not one of the Universities promoted science or engineering - they were all keen to plug Economics, Business Studies and Political Philosophy. Apparently the paradigm of their output was a lady who was now working for an advertising agency at c. £40K in New York at the age of 23.

Just in case anyone wonders why the cure for cancer (or indeed covid) is delayed.

A wealth tax would be a good idea, not least because the outrage on MN would supply my entertainment for months. This particular idea isn't perfect in the details but the general thrust of it would get my backing.

I love the posters who think that they owe nothing to a society which has enabled them to gain wealth. The "I pay loads of tax already" ones- yes, because you earn loads of money, and whilst you might tell yourself that is entirely due to your own brilliance, I doubt very much you invented, created, built, funded and maintained every one of the societal systems and institutions which meant it was possible for you to do so.

I love the posters who think that they owe nothing to a society which has enabled them to gain wealth

The ones that misunderstood Mrs Thatcher (not that she made a point of ever correcting them).

Think tank in overdrive. That’s never going to happen, wealthy people won’t put up with it.

We should all pay more apart from the poorest.
That’s such a shame re university not pushing science. Too many people want fame and fake insta lives ..

@Roselilly36

Think tank in overdrive. That’s never going to happen, wealthy people won’t put up with it.

And yet "the wealthy" are the few. Whatever happened to "democracy" ? Remember ? The will of the people and all that guff.

@Parker231

I work in corporate finance and am very well paid but what I do is irrelevant compared to what a nurse does at a fraction of my salary. The UK has a big problem with the low pay to public sector workers. It’s no wonder many newly qualified nurses look for work in other countries where their skills are recognised and properly remunerated.

Anecdotally, because the actual evidence is low, the story goes that all our nurses and doctors go to NZ and Australia. To work in health care systems that are not free at the point of treatment and which rely on direct private finance.

Taxation is either lower or comparable in these countries. Implying that the health systems and their employees gain from being partially able to charge privately.

For me, the issue of low reward in health and social care, is an issue and a problem. But I’m not convinced that our devotion to these services being totally reliant on public funding isn’t part of the problem.

Labour mansion tax proposal a few years ago (i.e. London tiny house tax) which would have been £30k a year was very popular as most people don't own expensive houses.
I suppose if it comes people would just buy 5 small flats around the world rather than one big house but it will all depend on who it is drafted. If it means 10% of every ISA and pension entitlement is removed and your bank account that is a different wealth tax than £30k per London house or whatever. We just don't know what might come in.

Worth slipping in that the US considers all wealth owned by US citizens fair game for taxation no matter where they are in the world. As frequent posts on these forums remind.

I have no idea how successful it is in filling Uncle Sams coffers, but it's certainly been successful in getting a bunch of folks to give up being American as a profession .....

That’s such a shame re university not pushing science.

Schools are just as bad. We'd been at a few Uni Open days and DS had been doing loads of online research about Uni/course outcomes, i.e. courses with better employability prospects (usually STEM), courses with better student satisfaction ratings (usually STEM), courses with better salary prospects (usually STEM). He got top grades in Maths and all 3 sciences at GCSE.

Went to the parent's evening in Lower Sixth, and the form teacher started talking about Uni applications etc., so DS told her which Unis and courses were on his short list. Her reply was basically to forget about future careers, job prospects, salary, etc and just go the Uni he liked the look of and whichever course he liked the sound of, and to worry about jobs etc later! We were all absolutely stunned at that "advice".

Anecdotally, because the actual evidence is low, the story goes that all our nurses and doctors go to NZ and Australia.

What I've never understood (and no one has ever explained) is why our doctors/nurses leave to go to Canada and Australia apparently. The spaces left are then filled by Eastern European and Far Eastern doctors and nurses who immigrate into the UK. OK so far. But why don't the Eastern European and Far Eastern medical staff just go to Canada and Australia? Are our "home grown" staff over-qualified meaning they can take jobs abroad that the Eastern European and Far Eastern medics aren't qualified for?

Ironically it was a labour politician operating at a time when the centre of politics was further to the left who pronounced on this subject. Dennis Healy spent 5 years exploring the option of a wealth tax and concluded that there was no option that would not be ridiculously complex, low in yield and completely unpalatable to the voters. I expect he had some good and informed advice at the time.

Given that it’s more than 40 years since Healey was chancellor, that’s pretty meaningless.

@larrygrylls

"It is better"

No it isn't.

@alsohuman
If at board level your responsibilities were less than a care worker then you weren't doing your job very well. At board level you are responsible for many people's livelihoods who are in your employ, for making sure your organisation is acting ethically, making sure that you aren't breaking any laws (or you end up in jail), making money for investors, ensuring that your customers are happy, managing the cash flow or your organisation etc. That is more responsibility than a care worker

I went to the same comprehensive school as all my friends but I choose to have a job with a very long commute, very long working hours, very high stress and responsibility and high remuneration which they would not choose to do. My cleaner most definitely could not do my job (she doesn't have the intellect or the skill set) and would not want to either because she's very happy with the fact she gets to manage her hours and see her kids. I don't have the intellect to be a rocket scientist - people have different skills it's a fact and business acumen or jobs that take a high level of interject are rewarded because less people can do them

And no one is no good at cleaning - anyone can do cleaning. You are no good at cleaning because you choose not to do it - not because you couldn't. I'm great at cleaning - I just don't like it and don't have tune to do it so I pay someone else, but if I lost my job tomorrow I could go into cleaning the next day without any skills or qualifications. It really is a very silly arguement

@Alsohuman

Given that it’s more than 40 years since Healey was chancellor, that’s pretty meaningless.

Why is it meaningless?

It is more relevant because the centre of politics is more to the right. It will continue to be unpalatable to voters.

It is more relevant because international and global financing mean wealth can be easily moved. People are more mobile and migration is higher. It’s going to be far too complex to implement unless it focuses on property held by uk tax payers.

The yield will be low unless it is unannounced and immediate. Again you are only likely to get money from property and residential property at that.

Given you propensity to extol the approach of Northern Europeans and Scandinavians, why are they ditching these models for the very reasons cited.

Where,

You actually believe this idea about jobs being remunerated by ability, with the market efficiently allocating pay?! Have you been living in a cave since 2008?

Some of the thickest people I have ever met have been some relatively senior investment bankers. They did, in one sense, work hard, as in long hours and lots of meetings. However it is only a stressful job if you internalise stress from it. Yes, it is easy to be fired if you lose money, but most get re employed very quickly and, given what they can earn in a good year, a spell of unemployment is not a big deal.

The very high earning jobs are still mostly occupied by people from the right schools (private) whose parents secured them the right internships.

I imagine nursing is very stressful, shift work, risk of infection and, if you make a mistake. It could cost an actual life, not just money. And nurses are in short supply. But what do we do? Bring in less skilled workers from poor countries, economise on the standard of care, anything but let the ‘market’ do its job and raise the pay level...

I used to believe in unfettered capitalism when i was young, then I experienced the real world. Anyone who still believes in unfettered communism after the last 10 years is the equivalent of an ardent communist in the 1990s.

Neither systems are fit for purpose without a lot of tweaking.

Unfettered capitalism

Where,

Incidentally, it is fascinating that you use footballers as the ‘exception that proves the rule’. Football is one area where it really is pretty much based on skills and hard work. There are very few prejudices or barriers to entry.

I suspect the issue is that you don’t see a footballer’s skills as being ‘worth’ the huge amount they are paid.

I am not personally convinced that a syndicate manager’s skills are worth 1mio plus a year, as they mainly consist of schmoozing and administration. And, there are considerable barriers to entry for this job, based on the right resume (right school and parents, really).

The reality is that we need some kind of middle ground here. It is a ratio of top pay to bottom pay. We need to reward brains and hard work but not in such an off-the-chart kind of way that we are recreating the days of the serfs and the landed gentry, just based off slightly different criteria.

If at board level your responsibilities were less than a care worker then you weren't doing your job very well

I didn’t say I had fewer responsibilities. I said I didn’t work as hard. And I stand by that.

And no, I’m rubbish at cleaning. Nobody would pay me for mine, unless they were blind. That’s why I pay someone who’s good at it to do it for me - and respect their skills.

@Alsohuman

If at board level your responsibilities were less than a care worker then you weren't doing your job very well

I didn’t say I had fewer responsibilities. I said I didn’t work as hard. And I stand by that.

And no, I’m rubbish at cleaning. Nobody would pay me for mine, unless they were blind. That’s why I pay someone who’s good at it to do it for me - and respect their skills.

And I’ll bet you don’t pay you cleaner the same rate as a board member or an executive, although I doubt you will admit it.

Most people can clean. I clean better than any cleaner I have ever had! You just need arms and the right materials.

Lolling somewhat at the belief that long commutes, long hours, and works stress are the preserve of the well-paid.