To ‘cause’ argument between BIL and DH? (#metoo related)

[HundredAcre]

BIL has some kind of obsession with a particular famous person who has been accused of sexual assault; he posts regular provocative Facebook posts about it, often derogatory about the woman who has made the allegation. I occasionally comment that we can never know for sure but otherwise keep out of it. On one of them recently however, he extended this to bitching about the #MeToo movement, how trial by media is outrageous, that people should not just believe whatever women say, not even as a starting point when they talk about what has (allegedly?!) happened to them.

I tried to debate and had barely said anything at all except that it was positive that people were becoming more aware of violence against women, and he was really nasty. He and a Facebook friend of his basically started saying I was incapable of identifying any rational aspect of any argument - and also generalising that to all women - and just made it very personal too, it got really misogynistic and I could barely believe what I was reading.

DH told me to just ignore him. I told DH it was fucking outrageous and he should have stood up for me. I got so angry I blocked BIL on Facebook. When BIL text DH to ask if things were ok, DH just said yes it’s fine. I told DH that standing by and letting BIL speak like that about women was unacceptable, and we had an argument about male privilege, which ended in him storming out, then storming back into the room again with clenched fists and screaming at me “you ungrateful bitch, you fucking cunt” pacing towards me until I actually put 999 on my phone and held it up with my finger ready to call, and he stopped instantly. I pointed out the irony when he’d calmed down.

DH is now super apologetic etc etc, says he will never do it again, will always stand up to BIL if he speaks to me like that again. So now there is this huge tension between me and BIL and I don’t know how we will ever be able to meet up in future and it be normal again.

This was a couple of weeks ago and I can’t get over it. Was I unreasonable? Should I have just shut up and kept the peace?

Today is 5 year anniversary of when I was raped, DH hasn’t remembered and is wondering why I look so sad. The police didn’t believe me when I reported.

@HundredAcre

I feel I may have been put into a box of abused wife a little here. I don’t have low self esteem and I do know my worth. I had trauma focussed therapy as a teenager and again after the rape. DH was a massive twat speaking to me like that; in several years together he has spoken to me badly twice, four years apart. In our day to day life we are the most soppy couple, if we have a shared day off we walk the kids to school holding hands and make my friends roll their eyes, we laugh a lot and he does make me happy or I would have left already. I’ll never meet another man who matches me like he does, when we are together I feel like I’m at home, if that makes sense. So no I’m not going to split up with my love because he behaved badly, but I will be insisting he goes back for more trauma therapy so that it doesn’t happen again.

OP, have you ever known a woman, perhaps here or in real life, who is clearly in an abusive relationship but doesn't believe it? And you can't understand how she doesn't realise? And she says things like "because he's so good most of the time" and "no, it's not that bad" and "he can be so lovely" and "it's because other people don't understand him" and "but I love him" and "no, I argue back" and "no, my self esteem is fine" and and and...

They feel exactly as you do and they sound exactly like you do, because they are you. This is what abuse looks and feels like. And this is why women stay in abusive relationships. It's complicated, but that's why. Abusers aren't one dimensional pantomime villains but this is what abuse looks like.

OP, it sounds to me like your husband has issues with anger /trauma and that he IS trying to deal with it.... but not effectively enough. I don't blame you for not feeling like the abused wife but I do think you need to be clear with him that he needs to do more to manage it. Incidentally, pre wedding, I realised that DH's anger issues were just too severe for me to manage after one particularly unpleasant argument. I told him that either he sorted it or I would not marry him. We've been married 12 years now. But he was willing to do the work. It sounds like your DH is trying to manage it himself when he needs professional help.

As for BIL. He's a twat. I don't agree that DH needs to defend you on facebook etc, but I DO think that he shouldn't have brushed it aside when BIL texted him. Because clearly, the fact that BIL texted him and not you is because BIL knows he's being a dick but was looking to get your DH on his side so he doesn't have to acknowledge it. Your DH's response should have been, "You've been extremely rude to her on Facebook and have said things she finds very difficult so of course she doesn't want to be on facebook with you anymore."

That would also probably have made you less annoyed about having to see him again. DH has a family member who means well but is a misogynist prat. But because I know Dh feels the same way, we can see this person when necessary and just engage very little with him.

I'm horrified that he's a police officer. If he's had a traumatic experience which has caused this anger and aggression then he needs help to deal with it but should not be working with the public whilst he does that.

We have enough problems with police brutality without adding your angry husband to the mix.
Plus, if he gave a shit about women and their experiences he would tell his brother he is out of line. By letting that pass, he's part of the problem.

The way he treated you was disgusting and abusive. You can be a strong, independent woman and still experienced domestic abuse.

Op your op is were you unreasonable to "cause" an argument between your DH and nil.

I'm a bit puzzled because you don't appear UK have caused an argument between them; your DH told your bil things were ok (?)
They don't appear to have had an argument, unless I'm missing something.

What's happened is that you and your DH have had an argument because he didn't back you up/argue with your bil.

If the aibu is "to expect my DH to back me up/argue with/express disapproval to bil" then I think yanbu. I think he should have told off his brother for his behaviour.

It appears the brother became quite malicious and derogatory towards you (?) So he should have said "unacceptable brother, you can disagree with my wife but do so respectfully/without malice, personal attacks, contempt etc".

Also, strictly speaking, if he truly believes/stands by his views on sexual assault/rape victims etc. then he should also told bil clearly that he didn't agree with his views (that false allegations are rare, that the majority of true allegations are not even prosecuted, which is unjust, and that we still have a massive issue in our society with attitude towards sexual crimes etc.) but it sounds like he didn't do that.

*bil not nil

Onto the issue of how your DH acted during your argument, and your description of his issues with anger, rage, temper etc. ... I certainly have not boxed you as an abused woman/wife, but his behaviour is disturbing.

And I asked several questions about it, which haven't been answered (I know it's v hard to answer every post), like what exactly he thinks you are "ungrateful" for?

Among other things, I would worry that his trauma is being used an an excuse for abusive behaviour.

You have your views and beliefs he has his. Why not leave it at that? I really don't get why people get engaged in such discussion when both it cares to prove the other one is wrong. What was ever going to be achieved? Some matters should always be left at home.

Oh and noone is a "little abused wife" .. lots of women who are abused (or realise they were afterward) are feisty, independent, take no shit in many ways, intelligent, capable, sensible, would not see themselves/appear as an victim.

Doesn't mean they can't be in abusive relationships. You don't have to be a cowering mouse to be in an abusive relationship, believe me I know.

You are being unreasonable to do anything apart from ltb and block both of them. Your husband sounds like just as much of a dangerously misogynistic arsehole as his brother, the only difference being he doesn't really want to upset this particular member of the lesser sex (you) because he quite likes shagging her.

Get the fuck away from them both, now.

Anyway op 92% of posters on here think you were justified in challenging your bil, (and then DH about not backing you up) ... What have you experienced as a result of challenging them; verbal abuse via SM by bil, dismissed by your DH .. and being shouted at, called a cunt, and approached on an aggressive/threatening manner by your DH.

You are in the right, and this is not a fair situation. And i think posters are worried on your behalf about future occurrences.

Whatever you do or don't do, it's worth keeping this foremost in your mind going forwards.

I wouldn't be that worried about him not wanting to jump into the online conversation - to me that's a bit different from speaking up if his brother were saying these things face to face or on a group video chat or similar. He should still be sympathetic if you need to vent about it, though - and also if you (understandably) want to avoid the BIL in future.

But this: ... storming out, then storming back into the room again with clenched fists and screaming at me “you ungrateful bitch, you fucking cunt” pacing towards me...

I understand that he could be legitimately upset - maybe he thought you were pushing him to do something he didn't want to do - but I would be very worried about the WAY he expressed his anger. If you were, say, black or Jewish or an immigrant, most reasonable people wouldn't find it acceptable for your H to scream racial, antisemitic, or xenophobic slurs whenever he became angry with you. So why accept misogynistic language? And the "ungrateful" part is really strange to me - why should you be particularly grateful?

Obviously, his behaviour was completely unacceptable - but you've already said he has anger management issues, and should be getting counseling for that. About this specific incident, I would want to know: (1) what exactly made him so angry? Just that he didn't want to get into a FB argument and you pushed him, or something about the original topic (rape, METOO, etc.)? And (2) why use the specific language he did, rather than for example calling you a nag or a troublemaker or whatever he thought?

Ungrateful because when we met he had a lot of money and I had none. He bought us a beautiful house in a beautiful area.. but clearly thinks I shouldn’t challenge him or it makes me ungrateful 🙄. We had words about that after he’d cooled off too.

What made him really lose his shit was because I told him he has white male middle-class privilege. That was at the end of a long debate turning argument that went from misogyny and BIL, to BLM, and that some groups in society - women included - face much greater challenges than he might not even begin to imagine in various circumstances. I can’t summarise a whole argument but he took the privilege comment as a massive insult rather than something he can’t change but must acknowledge etc etc. I’m not explaining it very well. He is/was blind to it though. Afterwards he was very sheepish and asked me if I could recommend anything he could read as he’d had a penny drop moment and was a bit shocked I think.

He used the word cunt probably without thinking because it gets thrown around a bit in this house in the absence of children.. I work in prison so am very am desensitised to bad language. I think using the word feels like owning it, so that when prisoners tell me I’m a cunt it doesn’t bother me, and they honestly say so much worse that cunt pales in comparison!! Something of a way to self protect to cope working in that environment. Certainly not a word I’d use around probably anyone other than DH! He isn’t allowed to treat me with the disrespect prisoners do though and he knows it - especially now. I have to stop with the self disclosure now before it outs me!!

Re: causing an argument, he felt I would have caused an argument if he’d said anything, rather than I actually did in the end. Sort of a me or him thing. One of the reasons he gave during the argument for failing to speak up was that he has to make a stand over this stuff all the time at work and at home he just doesn’t want to have to think about it or engage in conflict.