Sentences for people convicted of having or making images of child sexual abuse.

[AIMD]

I’m not someone that generally has too much of an issue with the types of sentences that the courts hand out but......why are sentences for having/making/distributing images of child sexual abuse so measly? I really don’t understand it?!

Is it unreasonable to think that anyone who has obtained, made or shared those types of images should face a custodial sentence and not ever just have a community sentence. Surely there should be more significant minimum sentence for those sorts of crimes to ensure that children are protected and there is More time to assess the offenders safety in the community?

Having/sharing/making images is abuse of children. The measly sent aces don’t reflect this though?!

Firstly those who make child porn do on the whole get custodial sentences

Those who own or even distribute do not because there are so many people who do this (shocking and gross but still) and there is no reasonable means to imprison them.

Owning a picture of abuse is a very different and much lesser of a crime than actually abusing a child

@TheVoiceOfReasonableness - if the defendant plead a guilty and admits to their probation officer they have a problem, then it is often recommended that they receive a Community Order with all sorts of courses designed to stop reoffending.

This doesn’t always happen- even if the offender admits they have a problem they will often go to prison if the abuse images are of Category A or feature younger children. Category C images featuring, for example, naked teenagers posing, would most likely get that community order.

Anyone found guilty or pleading guilty but claiming that they were “just curious” or “researching” or “had been hacked” or remain in denial tend to go straight to prison but not for long enough IMHO.

What if the offender admits to watching but pleads that it was ''under the influence'' of alcohol or drugs? Is that considered some sort of reasonable excuse do you know?

I really think that the idea that people who commit an awful crime have to be treated leniently because it's such a common crime is an incredibly depressing position for us to be in as a society.

People (family friends) often seem to stand by them rather than condemn. Adding again to the general feeling in society that it's not really that bad.

Similar to sex crimes generally really I suppose.

Essentially if it's a crime that was committed because a man had a hard on, then it's downplayed, minimised, somehow not their fault etc

That's at the root of this isn't it

So it seems, ShinyFootball, so it seems :(

It's not about treating someone leniently, it's sentencing guidelines that have to be abided by and all factors taken into consideration.

Depriving someone of their liberty is a serious act that has to be justified and used to either protect the public or as a last resort when other punishments have failed.

The justice system and the possible punishments are often out of step with the strength of emotion that people feel about that crime. And that's why we, as individuals don't get to decide the punishment.

There are 3 reasons for prison aren't there?

Protect the public
Punishment
Show that justice is done/ has teeth

I find the suggestion that contributing to the epidemic of child sexual abuse being carried out, photographed/ filmed, and posted online for all eternity is not a crime deserving of a serious punishment, and that those who think it is are overly emotional, a difficult position to understand

It is in line with other sex offences though. EG they were going to release warboys until there was a fuss. Threads on here and news in the papers all the time with breathtakingly lenient sentences for crimes committed while a man was in possession of an erection.

Its horrendous that along with domestic violence cases increasing in lockdown, so are the number of sex offences (against all ages) also rising.

@ShinyFootball

There are 3 reasons for prison aren't there?

Protect the public
Punishment
Show that justice is done/ has teeth

I find the suggestion that contributing to the epidemic of child sexual abuse being carried out, photographed/ filmed, and posted online for all eternity is not a crime deserving of a serious punishment, and that those who think it is are overly emotional, a difficult position to understand

It is in line with other sex offences though. EG they were going to release warboys until there was a fuss. Threads on here and news in the papers all the time with breathtakingly lenient sentences for crimes committed while a man was in possession of an erection.

Except putting people who have indecent images of children in prison doesn't protect the public.

The only one of those three it serves is to prove the system has teeth (which isn't a core goal of the UK justice system btw)

There are millions upon millions of men and women who possess child porn. In recent surveys over 5.8% of the population have expressed some sexual interest in children (slightly higher figures in the US)

It serves no real purpose to jail those who download child porn. It's much more efficient to go after those who actually abuse the children and film it. There are less of them and they cause much more harm.

The vast majority of those with sexual interest in children do not act on those urges. I work with sex offenders in the prison system and advise on which are suitable for release, we see the tip of the iceberg unfortunately

And punishment, you missed punishment.

When you say sexual interest in children how are you defining child?

The idea that there are so many men who are fucked up weirdos and like to watch children being raped that we might as well more or less legalise it is a bollocks idea. It's where we are with rape though so why not?

Also

Having sexual interest in a type of person does not mean you are automatically going to watch images of them being raped. The idea that men need porn is corrosive.

It's images of child sexual abuse, not 'child porn'. That phrase minimises it.

It is different to other sexual offences in terms of the evidence available. Prosecuting possession of images of child abuse is extremely easy for the CPS as the evidence cannot be denied or refuted. It is on their phone/computer. They may come up with a million reasons WHY but the evidence is there, they can't deny the possession.

Other sexual offences are usually far harder to prosecute. Possession of images of child abuse is an easy case for the CPS.

And once it gets to court, there are sentencing guidelines that have to be used as with every other offence. Aggravating and mitigating factors need to be taken into consideration.

There are different levels even in offences that cause us personal disgust and a great deal of emotion so a blanket 'custodial for everyone' is really simplistic and doesn't take any of that into consideration.

It also implies that imprisonment is the worst that could happen in terms of consequences and if you do that, job done, when actually, that isn't usually the case.

I work in MH in criminal justice and know plenty of people who prefer a custodial sentence to community orders.

@rwoollsey be good to hear from your experience.
Do you know what the community treatment programmes (if that’s the right term) involves? I have been pondering what sort of thing they might cover in it or how they might lower risk but for the life of me I can’t even guess what it would involve. I’d just be interested really as I’m familiar with other courses.

Also do you not think at least a short period in custody is helpful for being able to assess if someone continues with the programmes in custody or in the community. Surely at the point of the sentance no one has assessed their safety in the community or is that done as part of the court process?

@WhereILiveIsWhereIStay

It is different to other sexual offences in terms of the evidence available. Prosecuting possession of images of child abuse is extremely easy for the CPS as the evidence cannot be denied or refuted. It is on their phone/computer. They may come up with a million reasons WHY but the evidence is there, they can't deny the possession.

Other sexual offences are usually far harder to prosecute. Possession of images of child abuse is an easy case for the CPS.

And once it gets to court, there are sentencing guidelines that have to be used as with every other offence. Aggravating and mitigating factors need to be taken into consideration.

There are different levels even in offences that cause us personal disgust and a great deal of emotion so a blanket 'custodial for everyone' is really simplistic and doesn't take any of that into consideration.

It also implies that imprisonment is the worst that could happen in terms of consequences and if you do that, job done, when actually, that isn't usually the case.

I work in MH in criminal justice and know plenty of people who prefer a custodial sentence to community orders.

For me I wondered about the time in custody from a perspective of ensuring the safety of children in the community rather than just as a punishment.

What sort of factors would be considered mitigating?

[quote AIMD]@rwoollsey be good to hear from your experience.
Do you know what the community treatment programmes (if that’s the right term) involves? I have been pondering what sort of thing they might cover in it or how they might lower risk but for the life of me I can’t even guess what it would involve. I’d just be interested really as I’m familiar with other courses.

Also do you not think at least a short period in custody is helpful for being able to assess if someone continues with the programmes in custody or in the community. Surely at the point of the sentance no one has assessed their safety in the community or is that done as part of the court process?[/quote]
If they come in for a short period they wouldn't be assessed. Assessing which course to put someone on can take months. You have to check if they have a low IQ, investigate their offending history. And that's just the basics, those who download child porn are actually doing a lot better than those who do abuse children.

It would be nigh on impossible to create a treatment plan for those only convicted of child porn offenses. They don't display the same level of mental dissonance and therefore are difficult if not impossible to treat.

My treatment programs center around building positive views on sexual relationships and trying to breakdown the wrong images they currently have. For example on one program offenders call me or colleagues if they are running the program every time they masterbate, then discuss what they masterbated too and whether it was appropriate.

There are many different kind of sex offenders, those interested in children because they're attracted to under developed bodies, those attracted to children because they're easy to control, those who are mentally challenged and cannot 'relate' to age appropriate partners, those who are convinced they have no chance with adults thus turn to children as their only 'chance' to be 'loved'

"It's images of child sexual abuse, not 'child porn'. That phrase minimises it." Sorry, I said that and you're completely right.

Has anyone said custodial for this crime always?

I don't recall that.

@rwoollsey interesting to hear a little about the programmes, thanks.

Is there any effective treatment for people who are attracted to children’s bodies. I imagine out of the reasons your mentioned that would be difficult to address.
Sorry to ask more questions but it’s not often I hear about anything that happens after people are arrested and convicted.

What is the reoffending rate for these community orders?

[quote AIMD]@rwoollsey interesting to hear a little about the programmes, thanks.

Is there any effective treatment for people who are attracted to children’s bodies. I imagine out of the reasons your mentioned that would be difficult to address.
Sorry to ask more questions but it’s not often I hear about anything that happens after people are arrested and convicted.[/quote]
There certainly is

We do a lot of exposure therapy to try and 'Train' the brain to find more developed bodies attractive

After several months even years however sometimes we have to resort to just teaching people how not to act on urges

The vast majority of those attracted to children don't act on it irl. There are many coping mechanisms and these are also taught.

Reoffending rates are low for those who successfully go through treatment in prison.

You don't understand the criminal justice process OP.

If the offence is possession of images of child abuse, they've been on bail with conditions often for months if not years. If pleading guilty (most do), a probation officer has been commissioned to provide a pre-sentencing report and have assessed the probable risk using formal risk assessment tools, interviews with the offender and personal experience and will include whether there is evidence of contact offences, whether there is evidence of breach of bail conditions, whether there is evidence of further offending on bail etc. If that report recommended a custodial sentence, it's rare the court would go against that. If the recommendation is a community order and the court agrees, there'd be zero reason for the person to be sent to prison for assessment of risk. They already have been.

Pleading not guilty (foolish as the evidence is there on their 'phone or computer) will, as mentioned previously, usually lead to a custodial sentence anyway if found guilty because the offender will automatically be deemed higher risk as they are denying their offending which indicates lack of understanding, denial/minimisation and lack of remorse.

Here's aggravating and mitigating factors

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/possession-of-indecent-photograph-of-child/&ved=2ahUKEwjx-P6R77PqAhUyRxUIHZJICuYQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2TKiQZ99ErfSOx0RPaY8aa" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/magistrates-court/item/possession-of-indecent-photograph-of-child/&ved=2ahUKEwjx-P6R77PqAhUyRxUIHZJICuYQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2TKiQZ99ErfSOx0RPaY8aa

Custodial sentences are woefully lenient and few and far between for every offence, not just these ones.

I'm also not sure locking up someone who has a sexual interest in children with another load of men who also have a sexual interest in children is necessarily going to achieve anything positive.

@ShinyFootball

Eh? I'm not sure why you can't recall that since it's the entire basis of the thread

From the opening post:

"Is it unreasonable to think that anyone who has obtained, made or shared those types of images should face a custodial sentence and not ever just have a community sentence"

It's the opening post! And what people are discussing...

Oh ok sorry so long I'd forgotten the OP!

@WhereILiveIsWhereIStay your explanation was spot on, although there is a school of thought that doesn’t necessarily equate denial with a risk increase - the premise being that denial is often a way of trying to maintain an existing support network.

@5tressed drugs and alcohol would be looked at, but would not provide any line of defence. The may be contributory factors but these would be looked at as more of a lifestyle issue than something underpinning the offending behaviour. I have heard countless men say they did it because they were drunk etc, but it is very easy to challenge and unpick that.

@ShinyFootball hello again! Your “hard on” argument is the tip of the iceberg- it’s the cause of the hard on that is at the core of this - patriarchy, male entitlement, dominance etc.

The sentencing guidelines that keep being referred to exist within the context of our society.

Structurally from the ground up and all the way through, there are and have always been serious issues with how sexual crime committed by men is thought of, framed etc