To think the human race should respectfully die out?

[RomeoLikedCapuletGirls]

I’m not being goady as I’ve genuinely thought about this over the past few years as the following issues have come to the fore:

Climate change
Industrial meat industry
Pandemics

I’ve tried being vegan but always revert to eating meat for health. I’ve come to the conclusion that it was a much needed part of our evolution. The problem is of course the intensive whole scale nature of it, and the suffering it causes. Even the plant industry causes a lot of damage to the environment and ecosystems. The sheer numbers of humans needing feeding is the problem.

Again, with climate change. It’s a question of over-population. The more of us there are the more we deplete our earth’s resources we deplete. Limiting consumption is simply not working so we need something else.

And although we might crack Coronavirus, there’ll be another virus along soon to challenge us. And it’ll spread quickly because there are so many of us.

I’m not advocating mass suicide of course!

Just that we encourage our offspring to not have children until we have either died out or at the very least reduced our numbers to such a point that we are just one species amongst many, living on this planet and not causing the disproportionate amount of harm to the environment and other animals.

There’s nothing to argue that the human race should continue forever.

No answer?

I have one child. I have encouraged her not to reproduce. She doesn't intend to. That do ya?

Well done wasn’t hard.

You must be hitting that F5 key furiously in order to drop your little pearls of wisdom in just the right place! Is it making you feel better to come across like a superior patronising wanker?!

Lol glad you got that in. You were pretty fast and so angry.

Calm down it’s not that intense.

@HappyMealWithLegs

How are you defining intelligence?

I think by any reasonable definition we are the most intelligent.

Animals can do horrendous things to each other for survival, for their own amusement etc... The only reason they tend not to have the kind of impact on other species or their environments as we do is that they're kept in check by others animals or their own inability to adapt. You seem to be confusing weakness or ineffectiveness with virtue.

The universe has existed for almost 14 billion years. The observable (by us) universe is estimated to be 93 billion light years in diameter; it is estimated that the whole universe is at least 7 trillion light years across. Earth itself is about 4.5 billion years old; the earliest forms of life are thought to have emerged around 4 billion years ago. The first primitive primates evolved around 55 million years ago; hominids begin to appear in the fossil record around 5 million years ago and Homo Sapiens are believed to have emerged around 300,000 years ago. We populate a single small planet in a universe that is so vast it is beyond most of us to comprehend and have been around for about 0.00666666666667%* of that planet’s existence, and yet there are people who think the Earth is pointless unless we enjoy and appreciate it?

There are times MN leaves me literally .

(*assuming 4.5 billion is 4,500,000,000 that is!)

YABU, that's rather an extreme stance to take, for a problem that could be solved by reducing the population and living in way that is more environmentally friendly.

Also, you can't know that the planet, and all the other species on it, would be better off without humans. Some species fare better as a result of human intervention - well cared for pets for example, which often live many years longer than they would do if they had to hunt for their own food, and had no medical help available from vets. Also, I think that all species are inherently selfish, in that they put their own needs above those of other species, in order to survive. It just so happens that humans are at the top of the food chain and so have far more power to exploit the other species. I would like to see humans evolve to be kinder and less exploitaive to all other creatures, and over time I think that will happen.

I don't agree with not reproducing anymore. It is happening anyway that richer nations reproduce less. I think a planet with less children would be a sad place. I do believe in encouraging developing countries to reproduce at a slower rate by educating women and giving them more power. I also believe strongly in encouraging children in developed countries to consume much less, eat less meat etc., use less plastic, use less clothes. The carbon footprint of a typical "Westerner"/developed Asian countries too is currently far too high. Lastly, I also strongly believe we should stop keeping everyone alive at all cost for so long in our part of the world. But I do not have a solution for the last point. I do not now how it would be workable/moral. I would be happy to agree that e.g. the oldest I will become is 80 but this upsets a lot of other people. I think it would upset my children too especially my youngest as if she decides to have children they are likely to still be quite young when I am 80.

I did feel slightly guilty when this pandemic hit because an indiscriminate deadly disease that wipes out at least 50% of the population is something I have actively wished for for YEARS.

In theory, I imagined this to be the fairest form of population control, so it has been very disheartening to observe that it hasn’t affected all socio-economic groups equally, and hasn’t been anywhere near as deadly as is necessary.

Lastly, I also strongly believe we should stop keeping everyone alive at all cost for so long in our part of the world. But I do not have a solution for the last point

Have you ever read The Forever War? It touches briefly on that at one point in the book- very briefly indeed but it has really stayed with me. I agree, we are going to have to face a time when we can't prioritise life over all else, but like you I have no simple solution. It's very easy to say "we shouldn't be trying to keep everyone alive", easy to mean it in the abstract, but when it comes to it... How do we even begin to decide what that should mean in practice?

Also agree that the carbon footprint of those in 'developed' nations is far, far more of an issue than high birth rates in developing ones. But if you accept that, you have to change your lifestyle, and people would far rather berate Africans for having too many babies than give up their fast fashion and two weeks in the sun and air conditioned Chelsea tractors...

YANBU. But this pandemic has shown me the inordinate importance people place on their own lives and the desire to stop all death. It's weird.

I think it might be best for humans to die out as they mostly seem to be pretty pointless.

Yes, I'm including myself in that.

@MarshaBradyo That’s the thing about all the past extinction events, the species wiped out didn’t have a choice. All species have the fight or flight reflex, it’s incredibly hard to go against that instinct.

Of course I would more than likely fight to survive (although I’ve always said when the zombies take over I’m killing myself first chance), but that doesn’t mean we should survive.

Just that we encourage our offspring to not have children until we have either died out or at the very least reduced our numbers

I'm guessing you haven't really thought this through.....

I’m just asking if you think that the human race at its current pace of reproduction is unsustainable and overly-damaging.

Except this isn't true. Global reproduction rates haven't increased in 30 odd years.

For the record global numbers have increased because people in poorer nations are living longer. So your solution presumably would be to kill all Africans and Indians when they reach the age of 50?

I’m happy to be child free.

I still can’t watch anything about the terrible fires here in Australia earlier this year without bursting into tears. Relatives of mine live in Canberra and have young baby. They endured weeks of their city being choked in smoke. It’s estimated the smoke killed over 400 people in Australia. More than Covid has killed.

It astounds me that so many people are oblivious to the horrors that climate change will cause in the world and happily keep having babies. I’d never say anything but I do think it. Sometime I wish could be happily ignorant, it’s not as though I can do anything about it.

@RomeoLikedCapuletGirls

A plant-based diet is way more healthy than a meat-based one.

I really wish that this was true. But in terms of human evolution and optimisation it simply isn’t. Any article/book about brain health, treating issues such as dementia and MS will tell you that the healthiest diet is a mixture of fish and plants.

Since fish get their healthful properties from algae, and fish are a) living beings, and b) more affected by pollution we have caused, it would make more sense to eat the algae directly.

But no, not all articles/books say that. Just the ones you've read to reinforce your belief that fish is necessary.

And in evolutionary terms, which is more likely, that we gathered the algae (which doesn't try to escape), or caught fish by hand first? I think it's highly likely we ate the algae first, and then developed the skills to make tools to catch the fish. But that stage wasn't necessary to arrive where we are now.

I have anti natalist views somewhat but get caught up with where does that leave hope?

I have hope that we can change but does that mean overcoming our innate nature?

I also think not eating meat is the next part of our evolution. Strictly speaking, we were never meant to consume as much as we do, and now it is having detrimental effects on the human race and planet. Mass consumption, mass farming of meat should not be happening.

Oh and don’t even get me started on the arrogance of wanting to colonise other planets once we’ve fucked up this one.

I think there should be a child limit like there was in China. Maybe for two kids though. Everywhere.

And that we should provide monatary incentive for women who choose not to have kids.

We should probably educate people as to the dangers and damages child birth and pregnancy has on the body and potentially the mind (pnd ect). And to the costs and responsibilities that come with raising kids.

And promote individual adventures rather than this narrative of setteling down and having kids being some sort of (brainwashed) ultimate end goal.

Yes, but who’d willingly start the process?

Plenty of us

go on then: you first

Totally agree OP, but it's impossible to get everyone to agree at the same time. The only way is to have a totalitarian regime to enforce it, and this obviously has its own problems. Not to mention it would have to be worldwide, so some kind of one global government, or else individual countries would take advantage of their neighbours lack of growth and start stocking up on babies.

And promote individual adventures rather than this narrative of setteling down and having kids being some sort of (brainwashed) ultimate end goal

Ah pesky dna making us want to procreate! How do you suggest we undo 5 million years of evolution ?

Iwalkinmyclothing whenever I look at the numbers involved in the size and history of the universe (and earth and life!) I get this odd feeling, it feels very similar to when I get agoraphobia. Just the sheer size and lifespan of the universe and earth is overwhelming

@BestestBrownies

I did feel slightly guilty when this pandemic hit because an indiscriminate deadly disease that wipes out at least 50% of the population is something I have actively wished for for YEARS.

In theory, I imagined this to be the fairest form of population control, so it has been very disheartening to observe that it hasn’t affected all socio-economic groups equally, and hasn’t been anywhere near as deadly as is necessary.

I've seen some wacky posts on MN over the years but this is right up there.

We are awfully over-populated. We need to take steps to reduce the rate at which we reproduce and to scale back our consumption of resources.

It's already impacting us negatively as a species and is also detrimental to everything else we share this planet with.

If we carry on down this course we will eventually render much of our planet inhospitable and we will disappear the hard way.

Personally I'd rather reduce our population to a sustainable level and only consume what we need, rather than what we want.

We could do this by, as another poster has said, ensuring contraception and abortions are free and easily accessible to all, together with good education for all (especially women - studies have shown that the more education women receive in a country, the lower the birth rate is).

We need to learn to live in harmony with the planet and the other species around us, and not just do and take whatever we want.