To think the human race should respectfully die out?

[RomeoLikedCapuletGirls]

I’m not being goady as I’ve genuinely thought about this over the past few years as the following issues have come to the fore:

Climate change
Industrial meat industry
Pandemics

I’ve tried being vegan but always revert to eating meat for health. I’ve come to the conclusion that it was a much needed part of our evolution. The problem is of course the intensive whole scale nature of it, and the suffering it causes. Even the plant industry causes a lot of damage to the environment and ecosystems. The sheer numbers of humans needing feeding is the problem.

Again, with climate change. It’s a question of over-population. The more of us there are the more we deplete our earth’s resources we deplete. Limiting consumption is simply not working so we need something else.

And although we might crack Coronavirus, there’ll be another virus along soon to challenge us. And it’ll spread quickly because there are so many of us.

I’m not advocating mass suicide of course!

Just that we encourage our offspring to not have children until we have either died out or at the very least reduced our numbers to such a point that we are just one species amongst many, living on this planet and not causing the disproportionate amount of harm to the environment and other animals.

There’s nothing to argue that the human race should continue forever.

I agree, we are well over due the next mass extinction event and I hope humans are included in that.

Humans are the single thing that is wrong with this planet.
If humans die out, every other species will thrive.

We evolved too much, became too self aware and too selfish.
Animals by nature are suppose to care about 3 basic things- finding food/water, avoiding predators and reproducing. Sticking to that keeps the planet stable.

@DatingDisasters What would be wrong about the whole planet blowing up? What inherent value is there in this lump of rock that needs saving over our entire species (where the majority are just innocent bystanders)?

The lump of rock isn't the issue. The billions (trillions?) of other creatures that have a much worse time of it due to human pollution and ravages are. They're far more innocent than the average human.

I'm not against discussion even if I find anything that describes death as noble or respectful not a route I find overall beneficial, I just find the idea that only having fewer people would automatically solve anything nonsense. It wouldn't - those fewer people could make horrible choices too. It might make some problem solving easier, but there would still be a lot that needs to be done.

There is evidence of human population will decline by the end of the century and anything that would be faster than that would require the mass suicide that the OP has already stated they're not for. I don't get focusing on births when longevity is just as much if not more of the reason behind current population trends.

I'd rather focus on helping more people to be in control of their fertility, technology that will make large families even less needed for survival, and social systems that currently encourage when not mandating consumption than telling people how many kids to have. The UK is already below replacement rate so any laws here wouldn't make much sense anyways.

I agree, we are well over due the next mass extinction event and I hope humans are included in that.

Your family included?

It’s a bit much to wish fear and desperation on others. Maybe it will be swift although not nice to contemplate.

Yes, humans are a destructive race, we are too many and too successful for our own good, the plant will survive us though and regenerate when it gets rid of us, if it ever does.

I think people are romanticising the topic somewhat.

If it were to happen right now would you say ok fair play over to you elephants or would you try to protect your dc?

I think we're already on that track anyway. Meh, who's going to miss us. We're not exactly doing much good are we. I do disagree with your OP stance on meat though and I am a meat eater.

Lockdown has definitely made me feel nihilistic but I agree. The world would be a better place without us.

Look at 'anarchic primitavism', which is what some people believe.

Things started to go down the wrong path when Man discovered how to farm.

I agree that humans are a scourge upon the earth and it would be better if we only existed in very small numbers.

YABU
We are a species among many others.
We are not the cause of climate change. The climate changes anyway. It’s been hotter than this before. Human impact is like adding a lit candle to a forest fire.
We are a relatively young species too. No reason for us to go extinct. At least we have brains and are not mindlessly eating, pooping, fighting our way through life.
A virus does more harm than we do to animal and plant populations.

Tired of the negativity.

YANBU. One day, and not that far into the future, we will destroy this planet with our over consumption causing climate change. Global warming is real and that will destroy the whole planet, not just us. Animals will be extinct because of humans. I actually don't care that the human race will eventually be destroyed but I despair of the fact that we will also have been responsible for the destruction of millions of other living beings. The earth would survive without humans, but humans cannot survive without the earth. I fear it's far too late for change. And I don't have kids, so I've already stopped the buck there.

I really wish that this was true. But in terms of human evolution and optimisation it simply isn’t.

Any nutrient you can get from an animal you can get from a plant (except B12 which is easily supplemented). Plenty of people do veganism badly and then claim it is veganism itself which is unhealthy, but it’s wrong to judge veganism on the basis of people who don’t look after their health or understand nutrition (just like it would be wrong to judge an omnivorous diet on the basis of someone subsisting entirely on Big Macs and Coke).

The birth rate in the UK is below the natural replacement rate so there's really no need to try to impose limits or even judge people based on the number of children they have (so long as they are able to care for them adequately).

Imposing a one child only policy would likely only exacerbate the problems of 'demographic overhang'. China has abandoned their one child policy for a two child policy, possibly in belated recognition of this.

From the perspective of global population growth, I think education and widely available contraception is likely to produce better results than either shaming or legal restrictions.

The lump of rock isn't the issue. The billions (trillions?) of other creatures that have a much worse time of it due to human pollution and ravages are. They're far more innocent than the average human.

So are you suggesting that value is purely based on the majority and nothing more?

I don't think ethics are as clear cut as that. Determining whether something is more or less valuable can't be based on a numerical value. If that was the case, we'd have to argue that bacteria deserve a right to live over all other species.

I am guilty of speciesism but that's because I place more value on conscious, rational thought. I think all life meaningless, but humans are capable of choice and reasoned decisions. Animals are not. The human population doesn't need to die out. It needs to adapt and change. We are an innovative species and are capable of this.

I agree with you op. It is utterly depressing the things humans do to the Earth. Anything in their way gets destroyed. Living feeling creatures created and harvested for human needs. The environmental impact of modern lives. Over population. People want everything, and they want it now. And when they’ve finished with it, they want to throw it away, someone else to deal with it, and then get another.
The rubbish left on beaches last week when lockdown eased.
How can anyone think it’s ok?
DatingDisasters you say animals are selfish too? Maybe but they are merely trying to stay alive and survive in a human dominated world.
Animals take only what they need.They do no not build cities and roads and factories, or cover fields in concrete, or fill the ocean with plastic, they don’t burn fuel, or breed and capture one another in tiny filthy cages ready to slaughter and eat when the day comes. They are Simply predators and prey as it should be. They don’t start wars. They don’t mass produce and shop for leisure then throw the lot into landfill. They’re not out hacking down the rainforest to make room for cows to graze or for wood for a flat pack wardrobe. They do what they need to do to survive. They don’t destroy the lives and habitats of others just because they can. Humans do that. I had my children when I was very young, but if I’d have waited I don’t think I’d have had children.
There is a beautiful quote from water ship down which really puts it well.

“ Animals don’t behave like men, if they have to fight, they fight, and if they have to kill, they kill. But they don’t sit down and set their wits to work to devise ways of spoiling other creatures lives and hurting them. They have dignity and animality”

I don't think we should die out 'for the sake of the planet' but clearly a lower population would be better. For us not just the planet.

We make all kinds of rules about consumption to lessen our effect on the environment, but none of them would be needed if there were only say 10% of the current figure. A two child policy not one as that would cause a long slow and manageable decline.

Baboomtsk you have to look at the world population really. We may be having fewer children in the UK, but our population is rising rapidly. People coming here because there's no food or homes where they came from.

You're right OP. It is the sheer arrogance of the human race that will destroy us. As demonstrated on here with people spouting about higher intelligence. We are not special. We are not different. We are animals. We are an insignificant speck of dust in the history of the planet. Dinosaurs lived for hundreds of millions of years and then died our 65 million years ago. That gives you an idea of how old the planet is. How long has mankind been around? A mere hundred thousand or so? Earth will do just fine with or without climate change. It is man who will perish.

We have lost out way. We try to control everything and try to override nature/evolution at every possible opportunity. Then something like coronavirus comes along, which is basically a huge 'Fuck you all!' from nature.

YANBU. Humans really are the scourge of the earth. We have fucked up royally at being top dog of the world and are long overdue the sack. Let the animals and nature reign.

@Whengodwasarabbit

Water Ship Down is a great film (haven't read the book unfortunately) but I'm afraid that quote is factually incorrect.

Other primates, killer whales, dolphins and cats all come to mind.

@LastTrainEast in my earlier post I think I mentioned that when women have the means and five they tend to have fewer children, even in developing countries. I think we'll see population begin to stabilise globally in the next decade or so.

I think it's an interesting thought experiment and I don't understand why you are getting the flack you are, OP.

Clearly humans are a plague on planet earth. I mean, surely no one would honestly try and argue otherwise.

The question is, what can, realistically, be done about it? I am highly pessimistic about the chances of 'stopping' climate change through industry, farming measures etc. Limiting the population by non-voluntary means (which is what would have to happen) is draconian and unworkable.

None of us know what the answer is but that's no reason not to ask the question.

It’s certainly appears very human to daydream about your own destruction whilst wanting no diminishing of your own life. Wonder if there’s a term for that, seems common.

Flack? I thought people wanted ‘discussion and debate’.

I agree OP. I'm not surprised at the 'you go first' posters; there are always a few who take any topic that doesn't fit their narrow view, as an attack, but it isn't and wasn't. Nobody was advocating genocide.

Human beings are parasites and we generally don't look after anything we have guardianship of. I know it's a generalisation but people are selfish and I don't bother reading scurrilous news reports to know that. As a people, we just don't seem to care beyond our own short-term pleasures.

Why so defensive, @MarshaBradyo? No one's asking you to change anything. It's just a conversation.

At least one of the others posters has happily said the population should be reduced by half and she’d be ok for herself and her family to be culled for the greater good.

Lying I couldn’t disagree more. I don’t find it an attack nor narrow to say how, why and who will do this? .

In fact I see anyone posting as you do unwilling or unable to think outside what you are posting hence replying as you did.