To think there has to be a gentler method than CIO for 13 month old?

[Pondlife87]

My baby is 13.5 months old and sleep just gets worse. She wakes up around 6-8 times a night. I'm working and I can't take it anymore. I have been against CIO/ sleep training but everyone is suffering and something has to give.
I've posted on a sleep training forum about it and people have said that she's too old and alert now for anything except CIO full extinction to work.
Please somebody tell me that they managed something a little less severe with their child at a similar age? I will do it if I have to, but only if it's the last option.

We currently have a bedtime routine which has been in place for about 7 months. We've broken the feed to sleep association. We've got black out blinds and we play white noise at night.
We've tweaked bed times numerous times, which only seems to make things worse. I've tried all the recommended gentle sleep methods for months at a time, with no change.

I'm at a loss of what else to do.

@CoodleMoodle thank you for your reply.

My daughter cannot for the life of her sleep longer than 2 hours at night, most of the time less. I can't remember the last time I had three hours sleep in a row.

Unfortunately I am always being told it's my fault for breastfeeding, for feeding to sleep, for making that association with sleep and that's why she's never learned to self settle, that now I've left it til 18 months it's going to be harder for her to settle naturally and any sleep training I do will take longer as she's older.

Can't win, too exhausted to try sleep training again (tried one the last) but can't go on like this as I work full time and my mental health is suffering

*going to go and eat chocolate now

If you can afford it then try an agency like Night Nannies for an expert sleep trainer. Wish I knew about it with my first. With my second I knew I could not hack it and needed to work. Had an amazing lady called Vera. They come and stay for usually 3-5 nights - basically as long as it takes and they say 5 nights is the max. I was instructed to go to bed and sleep and she devised a whole plan and routine. It was all very painless for both me and DD2. The money I spent meant I could actually work so made the money back and more.
Good luck.

@PippinSqueak
Oh, that must be so tough. I was/am a SAHM and the sleep deprivation was brutal, so can only imagine what it's like to work full time. It definitely isn't your fault though - you did what you thought was best and that's all any of us can do. My DC had terrible sleep habits before CC, particularly DS. He would only drop off if I (and it did have to be me) held him in a certain way over my shoulder and jigged back and forward while he pulled out clumps of my hair and screamed. It was unpleasant and absolute agony and that was when I said No More.

If it makes you feel better, I had to redo CC at 18mo with DD. She had a bad cold and we ended up rocking her again and bringing her in with us, then when she was better she refused to go to sleep on her own. We kept putting it off and then I said to DH that we had to do sleep training again and that was that. Couple of nights and it was back to sleeping through. Never had to do it since with her, and now if she's ill she'll come in our bed, but as soon as she's better she goes straight back to hers. Same with DS, and he's younger. He took to sleep training quicker than she did, oddly enough.

Good luck with whatever you choose to do. Nobody wants to sleep train, nobody enjoys it! And it doesn't work for every single baby. But if it does work, it's completely life changing.

My oldest was like this until she was almost two, it was hellish and loads of days I went to work on fuck all sleep. It all came spectacularly to a head when I was heavily pregnant with DC2 and my husband had a panic attack (he’s never has them before or since) and actually got tearful (again, not a common thing) because he was dreading the night wake ups, it was so bad. We focused on gradual retreat, basically getting her to self settle in the cot with us sat by the cot, then getting her to self settle with us in the chair, then self settling with us in the doorway etc. The first two nights were hard as she cried a lot to settle even with me there, I just kept repeating in my head “she is fed, she is warm, she has a clean nappy, she has her Mummy, she is just tired and not understanding the change.” She started sleeping through after about three nights and it was amazing! Briefly had a month of sleep before DC2 came along! At the time I was petrified she’d be emotionally damaged, she’s now four and is the most affectionate little girl who adores Mummy. And she still sleeps through! So I’d recommend that. Whatever you do it will be okay! Good luck

Mine (18months) was breastfed as well and woke up to feed every 3-4 hours at 13 months. She drank loads each time so I think she was genuinely hungry/thirsty and couldn't bring myself to try CIO or offer water. I fed her to sleep whenever she wanted and also during the night.

Luckily things improved dramatically between 15-18 months without me needing to do anything. They have a lot of developmental leaps at this point such as eating more during the day (no biological need for night feedings), dropping naps (more tired at night), learning to walk/run (being more active) and understanding speech. All of those may contribute to a better sleep situation.

We have a video baby monitor and one thing I found worked surprisingly well was simply talking to her through the microphone. This happened around 15 months when I think she was able to understand a bit of speech. If I see her sit up I'd repeat "Lie down please, it's sleepytime. Mummy loves you." and she usually flops right down. If I do it often enough she remains flat and falls asleep. It's a lazy version of gradual retreat and seems to work well. Yesterday she had a proper tantrum at bedtime, throwing her stuffed toy out of bed and of course couldn't sleep without the toy. I returned the toy, left the room and only spoke to her on the monitor and she fell asleep!

You're right no one wanted to sleep train or enjoys it. I will fully admit that I'm not strong enough to do it at the moment but I know I have to do it in order to try and get things to a "normal"

What breaks my heart is that we have such a lovely bed time routine where we sit/rock in the chair until she falls asleep, (never have any trouble with getting her to sleep) and I know she feels safe and loved (not that she wouldn't by putting her in the cot, but you know what I'm saying) and is hate for her to think I'm just leaving her or she can't have that close comfort anymore.

Another horrendous night last night, I stopped counting after 6 times and I gave in and boobed her each time 😢 I feel so angry at myself and such a failure

We used the controlled crying method my our dd at 12 months old. She was sleeping pretty well thought the night but getting g her to sleep was a nightmare. She wanted us to touch her face until she was sleeping, which sounds cute but not so cute when you're having to lean over right to the cot (on lowest setting) for over 2 hours sometimes. Took about 10 nights to get her to go down in her bed and settle herself without crying but it's by far the best thing weve ever done. She now goes down at half 7 every night, we give her a kiss and a cwtch and leave her to it. She just lays in her bed until she falls asleep never cries. and sleeps through until about half 5 in the morning

Hey @pondlife87
My baby was waking every two hours and it was due to being sensitive to damp nappy.
Babies sleep cycles last two hours, something disturbs baby sleep enough to bring her around enough to wake her up. If bottle fed it is unlikely it is hunger as it is quite nutrient rich- but might be worth increasing protein in dinner as it digests more slowly, your dad might either cold/hot or uncomfortable due to tight nappy, damp nappy.
We wrapped baby up and changed to bamboo reusable nappies from little lamb and he sleeps through the night.
I would try making these changes before attempting on sleep training

There is...
Give your baby what they need.
They wake and comfort them till they go back to sleep.
That's biologically normal.

@PatricksRum what a completely unhelpful comment! A conversation full of mums who feel they absolutely can't continue the way things are, who are exhausted and suffering, and you offer no helpful advice at all, plus a whopping guilt trip. Maybe next time if you can't think of anything useful to say, don't comment at all?

[quote theproblemwitheyes]@PatricksRum what a completely unhelpful comment! A conversation full of mums who feel they absolutely can't continue the way things are, who are exhausted and suffering, and you offer no helpful advice at all, plus a whopping guilt trip. Maybe next time if you can't think of anything useful to say, don't comment at all?[/quote]
I don't find it unhelpful.

It's another option.

It's what the OP seems to be doing at the moment.

I hate sleep training threads, they all go the same way-desperate exhausted mum at the end of her rope, followed by a large number of smug, superior sounding comments along the lines of ‘just get on with it, it’s such a short time in the grand scheme of things...’ no it fucking isn’t when you’re genuinely feeling like you’re about to die of sleep exhaustion even the thought of another week of it makes you want to jump out of the window. And co sleeping doesn’t work for everyone, it’s not the magic bullet that some people say it is. Some babies see it as a message that it’s playtime not sleep time, and some people are too worried about safety to relax and sleep in which case what’s the point? By all means suggest trying it but comments always seem to be basically ‘co sleep, it works, end of’.

Your child will absolutely not be damaged by a few nights of age appropriate sleep training, but they might be by a mother who drives off the road in sheer exhaustion. Good luck OP and ignore the mummy martyrs who seem super keen to overlook the fact that sleep is a basic human need and dying of exhaustion isn’t some kind of badge of honour! Rant over

Oh and all this ‘biologically normal’ guff-well it’s also biologically normal for a human adult to require enough sleep that they’re not hallucinating.

@PatricksRum It's what the OP seems to be doing at the moment.

Yeah, and she's so exhausted that she's come on a parenting forum asking for help to address it, because she isn't coping!

"Don't change anything" isn't a helpful response to someone saying "something desperately needs to change. Motherhood isn't martyrdom!

It may be your opinion, but you know what they say about opinions and arseholes...

Oh and all this ‘biologically normal’ guff

Wtf is guff about it being biologically normal for a baby to wake and seek food/ comfort? It might not be a need you can meet, it doesn't mean it's not a normal need the baby has.

@Rainycloudyday But it likewise always starts off as 'literally dying any second now from sleep exhaustion', 'oh in fact I'm a heart surgeon and can't be tired at work', 'well I have a 7 hour commute by car so can't be tired in the car' etc. Then on a recent thread in the end it was actually about 'well I really want my time in the evening watching breaking bad with DH'

People are not judging other mums for being exhausted and doing what is right for them. But without pointing out that the waking is biologically normal, it naturally gets better over time, and there are things that can help other than sleep training, the other side of the comments contributes to a general 'sleep training culture' in which people start to believe they HAVE to sleep train, or they're in the wrong for being there for their DC both day and night even though they do feel able to. Surely you would agree that that would not be a good thing either.

But that’s the thing @Leah100 it actually doesn’t always get better naturally over time. Sometimes poor sleeping habits are so ingrained in a child that they just stay that way or get worse. Sometimes children need gently teaching how to sleep instead of just assuming it will happen. We teach many other life skills, we don’t just sit back and wait for them to potty train themselves for example. Of course that doesn’t apply to newborns, I just mean that saying things will get better if you wait it out isn’t always true.

I don’t believe that it’s good for people to feel they have to sleep train, of course not. But equally I just can’t get on board with this approach to motherhood that involves sacrificing all wants and needs of the mum, for however long it takes. I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone in the family. I also think that approach is behind many of the posts on here from mums further down the line who have massive problems with their career, relationship, weight, general self confidence. Because they have basically sacrificed their whole selves. It’s like it’s a taboo sometimes for a mother to value her own wellbeing.

@rainycloudyday

I don’t believe that it’s good for people to feel they have to sleep train, of course not. But equally I just can’t get on board with this approach to motherhood that involves sacrificing all wants and needs of the mum, for however long it takes. I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone in the family. I also think that approach is behind many of the posts on here from mums further down the line who have massive problems with their career, relationship, weight, general self confidence. Because they have basically sacrificed their whole selves. It’s like it’s a taboo sometimes for a mother to value her own wellbeing.

I want to embroider this on a cushion and keep it on my bed!

Another vote for checking out the Beyond Sleep Training Project - its not hippy ideals about motherhood martyrdom but has loads of information about what is actually normal for babies, with information about how they actually respond to stressors like CIO, and things to look for to indicate if something isn’t right for baby.
It can even be something like the bedtime routine, sleep hygiene (no tv before bed etc), allergies or just needing a cuddle that’s keeping baby awake.
Hope you find the answers for your family

@Rainycloudyday I think my 17 month old is one of these, she's always woken frequently at night and it's not getting any better. Once in a blue moon she ll pull a three times a night wake but never consistent.

I'm seriously considering night weaning and sleep training at the same time.

It goes against everything I feel is right but something needs to happen. She doesn't need the boob other than for comfort and she needs to learn to sleep longer than two hours

Give me strength

I always feel so sorry to hear people are struggling , I remember throwing two parenting books out of my bedroom window when DS was tiny because I just couldn't cope with the feeling I was doing things "wrong" all the time.

The one thing that really helped me was to get DS to self-settle for his daytime nap.

It is so much easier to tackle in the middle of the day than at night.

He was a bit older than 13 months iirc, probably closer to 18, and I wasn't feeding him during the night by then, but he was still waking frequently, and I was really struggling.

He would only fall asleep for a daytime nap during a car or pushchair ride so it was a big step to move into his cot for a daytime sleep. We went very slowly with a fixed nap time, black out blinds and a gradual retreat. I remember sitting on the landing for a few days waiting to pop back in as needed, but it didn't take long.

I did find it had an immediate impact on the number of times he woke in the night, basically he stopped waking unless he was ill.

I hope that might help someone

@Pippinsqueak poor you, at 17 months that’s hard going. Only you can know what’s right for your family but personally I don’t feel that a child needs milk at night at that age. Some mums are happy to bf at night as long as the child wants even if they know it’s not technically needed but that’s totally individual choice. No judgement here whatever you do.

I remember being struck by a poster a while back who said she had terrible sleep habits as a small child and her parents had never made her fall asleep alone and now as an adult she still can’t sleep and was quite resentful of how she felt her mum had never instilled good sleep habits. I’m not for one minute saying that babies that aren’t sleep trained won’t sleep as adults, but it just made me think about it from a different perspective, that good sleep habits are so important and is it something we should make sure we equip our children with at an appropriate age? I don’t know, I’m certainly no expert but just my musings.

Good luck whatever you decide to do, you’re a hero to still be standing after 17 months of constantly broken sleep

@RainyCloudyDay
I agree completely with everything you've said.

And another part of the reason I did sleep training was because I felt it was cruel to let my DC suffer with poor sleep for much longer. It wasn't just about me, or DH, or the neighbours, or DM when we went to stay with her. It was about my kids being absolutely miserable and exhausted during the day, because they were supposed to be getting 12hrs of sleep per night, and were only getting six, all broken. It's not healthy for anybody, least of all DC. Sleeping is when they do their growing, when their bodies heal. Sitting on my lap and being rocked whilst she screamed for hours in the night was no more restful for DD than it was for me.

My friend has a 9yo and she has a terrible time with getting her to bed. She won't sleep in her own bed and even when she gives in and they cosleep, her DD won't sleep for hours and hours. They can't go for sleepovers anywhere because of it, and my poor friend has had zero time to herself in the evenings. For nine years. I'm definitely not saying that not sleep training means you'll be up half the night with a preteen, but I really don't know how she's coped this long. I would've broken a long time ago. I nearly did, when DD was 14mo.

Graduated extinction methods don't teach children how to fall asleep on their own. Children are simply denied access to their parents, and left to work it out for themselves. Studies have shown that parents stress levels decline as they can't hear their child crying any more, but the stress levels of the child remain high. The concern is that we don't entirely understand the long-term impacts of living with consistently high levels of stress hormones.

I did rapid return/controlled crying at 14 months, including getting DS out of my bed and stopping breastfeeding.

It was fine. He cried a lot the first night but by night three he was asleep within five minutes with no crying. He’s 8 now and has no memory of that time, and why would he?

I valued my own sleep (I was working full time and was woken every time he latched I’m in the night) and well-being and I’m glad I did.