To wonder if people will think more carefully about becoming parents after this?

[OrangeSlide]

Do you think that now people have seen that the shit can hit the fan and they might be solely responsible for the well-being and education of any children they bring into the world, in particular without practical state support in terms of schooling, people might be less inclined to have children?

I wondered this at the start when schools closed and I’ve thought about it more and more as the situation has progressed.

I think with with more time at home, less activities available, less jet setting around the world - people will want to go back to traditional family life. I think more people will add to their families and more people will start families because this pandemic will show people that love and family bonds are what makes life worth living - not instagrammable holidays, endless evenings out, excessive spending and all the other capitalist/consumerist activities we have come to value to highly.

Quite the opposite for me. Pre-lockdown I lived a "traditionalist" life as a SAHM. I've now realized all those things you list are what makes life worth living! I'm currently planning tons - activities/holidays/ mini breaks/uni courses. Lots of fun times with friends and family. I intend on doing all those things more than ever and making the most of all the opportunities I didn't appreciate before.

I do agree with you OP. I had ummmed over a potential third child for a couple of years and can finally categorically say I won't be having one. Lockdown with a two and three year old put that idea to bed for good. I'm so happy to be finally at peace with having two DC, the thought of having had a third during lockdown would be unbearable.

I can't speak about those you know, but "accidental" pregnancy seems be more the norm on MN than planned.

I do wonder about that sometimes. I have seen a few threads these past years of people who had regular sex without contraception but weren't trying to get pregnant yet. I mean, what did they think could happen? To me having sex without contraception is trying to pregnant or being stupid, not an accident.

id say kids growing up 50yrs ago were far more ignored/ had a lot more freedom and a lot less mental nourishment

I completely agree, although I’m not entirely sure what “mental nourishment” is. A lot of freedom is surely a good thing? As is knowing how to entertain yourself. It’s the people who can’t do that who have suffered most in lockdown.

lot of freedom is surely a good thing? As is knowing how to entertain yourself. It’s the people who can’t do that who have suffered most in lockdown

Not when that freedom borders on neglect.

Yes it's great to know how to entertain yourself, and most kids do, but they're used to going to school 5 days a week. It's hard to occupy yourself all day every day, even for adults.

I'm sick of the "ooh it's all your own fault" bullshit.

Not when that freedom borders on neglect

Definitions of neglect are so variable. When I was a child neglect by today’s standards was the norm. Today’s parents would have a conniption at the level of freedom my parents had as children. It was only neglect in 21st century eyes; they were loved, well fed and clothed and properly educated.

@Alsohuman

Not when that freedom borders on neglect

Definitions of neglect are so variable. When I was a child neglect by today’s standards was the norm. Today’s parents would have a conniption at the level of freedom my parents had as children. It was only neglect in 21st century eyes; they were loved, well fed and clothed and properly educated.

Yes but we've learned from then haven't we that perhaps what you did wasn't actually very good for children?

Children now aren't being properly educated. That's the sodding problem!

I think with more time at home, less activities available, less jet setting around the world - people will want to go back to traditional family life. I think more people will add to their families and more people will start families because this pandemic will show people that love and family bonds are what makes life worth living

I think you are projecting a little there Alabamawhirly1. Not every woman feels the need to be an earth mother or immerse themselves in family life. Although I agree that many people might realise that a simpler life suits them and is better for the environment.

Yes but we've learned from then haven't we that perhaps what you did wasn't actually very good for children?

Wasn’t it? I think it was very good for them. They grew up into resilient, well adjusted adults, capable of critical thinking and risk assessment. You only have to look at some recent threads to see how incapable a lot of people who reached adulthood in the last 20 years are of either of those things.

Obviously no way of bringing up children is ideal because none of us is perfect and both have their pros and cons but it’s a bit arrogant to say we know better now. Until today’s generation of kids reach adulthood we won’t know.

Wasn’t it? I think it was very good for them. They grew up into resilient, well adjusted adults, capable of critical thinking and risk assessment

Brilliant. Many others with a similar childhood didn't.

You only have to look at some recent threads to see how incapable a lot of people who reached adulthood in the last 20 years are of either of those things

How rude. There's many who are both of those things.

but it’s a bit arrogant to say we know better now

It's really not. As life goes on and things change and we learn more we reflect on the past and improve.

I'm sure there's elements of your childhood or your children's that were great. Some of it won't have been great.

The same will go for the children growing up now, but again we'll be able to look back and realise that perhaps some things weren't great so we change them.

Yeah OK. There’s not a lot of point in debating with someone who can’t be arsed to read what you say.

@Alsohuman

Yeah OK. There’s not a lot of point in debating with someone who can’t be arsed to read what you say.

I have read what you said I just didn't agree with you.

You didn’t read what I wrote or you wouldn’t have made this response.

*You only have to look at some recent threads to see how incapable a lot of people who reached adulthood in the last 20 years are of either of those things

How rude. There's many who are both of those things*

I said a lot of people, not all. That response was entirely redundant.

@Alsohuman

You didn’t read what I wrote or you wouldn’t have made this response.

*You only have to look at some recent threads to see how incapable a lot of people who reached adulthood in the last 20 years are of either of those things

How rude. There's many who are both of those things*

I said a lot of people, not all. That response was entirely redundant.

Right, whatever. You're the better parent, everyone else just needs to do better and stop actually parenting their children. Bla bla fucking bla, good old days and all that.

I rest my case. Have a good day.

@IndianaJonesAndTheTempleOfBoom

Lots of women have lived in circumstances where the males who controlled them wouldn't have permitted them to end a pregnancy and would've penalised them if they thought they had.

Yep. But they could have tried to end the pregnancy anyway/run away to join a convent rather than marry/committed suicide rather than have sex/carry to term/invent contraception themselves/campaign for women's rights TO THE DEATH etc.
We're all the descendants of the women who DIDN'T do any of those things, and the men who probably had more freedom, but chose sex and children despite a shit situation for the kids.

It's not a moral judgement I'm making btw, just an observation.
We're the children's children's children of everyone who reproduced since the year dot, no matter what.

Most women in human history haven't lived in societies where convents existed, those who have wouldn't necessarily always be able to get to them, and how many of us even with the benefit of education we have now could invent a contraceptive method ourselves, really? Women have usually been able to kill themselves instead to avoid sex and carrying to term, sure, notwithstanding potential repercussions to surviving loved ones, but that doesn't tell us anything particularly useful.

I think if there is a baby boom in 9 months it will be to those who are first time parents!

I’ve totally been put off having anymore children after the continued hell of having little ones to care for in lockdown.

I do wonder about that sometimes. I have seen a few threads these past years of people who had regular sex without contraception but weren't trying to get pregnant yet. I mean, what did they think could happen? To me having sex without contraception is trying to pregnant or being stupid, not an accident.

I think the problem for a lot of people, me included - is there isn't a good contraception method.

I spent my entire adult life on the pill. When I came off to have my first child I realised how different it had made me feel and made my body. I never wanted to take hormon contraception again.

But the alternatives are just not great. So as we wanted more children anyway, we used the rhythm method and let fate decide.

I'm now pregnant with my thrid and my dh will be getting a vaxecotmy.

I’m very grateful I have 3dc close in age. Emotionally they have a playmate and it’s definitely been harder on my friends with only dc. Despite dh and I working full time, employers have been forced to allow flexible and home working. Our employers have discovered that the reality is, the standard of work hasn’t dropped and we’re all doing a great job. I think we will have access to more flexible working in the future.

I loved lockdown, plenty of time for DC no ridicules management of school run work and activities. Instead we spent our time playing games online/ offline, walking & cycling with the odd picnic. (Disclaimer: we have a biggish garden & lots of dog walking & DC are over 8, both parents on furlough.)
We got to know each other a bit better...DC are far more relaxed and I had time to teach some great life skills like cooking more complex meals...
OK Ylva School has a -30% success rate and would fail any Ofsted report (... immediate closure would be the only advice possible!)
So, if i am given time (& the money needed), I would have more DC, not less.

@Alsohuman

Well, not really. You can't miss what you never had. If this had always been our life we wouldn't be struggling would we?

You’re either being disingenuous or missing the point. Parents - specifically women - have managed to entertain toddlers without those things since the dawn of time. Is the current generation of young parents so lacking in ingenuity that it’s suddenly become “next to impossible”? If so, their parents did a pretty shit job.

I can't type what I would like to say to that as it would be deleted. I'm also not "young" particularly, approaching 36.

I will echo a previous poster who said that friends did do a lot of the heavy lifting. Growing up in the 80s and 90s, I had a little girl my age next door in both houses we lived in. 2 nearby cousins. I went to my grandparents a couple of days a week. I also have a toddler who just wants to walk/run all day long and mentioned parks, playgrounds (which I am pretty sure have existed for a while?!) and gardens because they are safe and enclosed places for him to run around.

I'm sorry if being upset that I had to confine him to a pushchair in the park to adhere to social distancing makes me a shit parent with no imagination. Jesus.

It's ok for you to say if you've got kids. What if you're late thirties and maybe your last chance?

I find your post judgmental and not very nice OP