To ask you - DS medicine or natural sciences

[Pumpkintopf]

Hi all, would really welcome some views on this -

Ds yr 12 has up till now been focused on applying for medicine this year. Lately however (very recently) he's not so sure and to be honest some of the stuff I've read - mainly junior doctor accounts of life in the NHS - do make me afraid for him, the hours and lack of support seem so intense. I do also understand that these may not be wholly representative- or maybe they are-DH and I are not medics.

He was always quite keen on a research type role anyway so given that, would natural science or similar be a better fit? Would love any views from those who have experienced either/know people who have...

Thanks Professor yes it was natural science at Cambridge he was initially interested in - he liked the opportunity of the broad base with options to then specialise and the inclusion of 'new' (to him) options like materials science and genetics - but interesting that in the case of other unis he'd have to make more of a choice, that's something to factor in.

Thank you all for your advice, it's so appreciated.

I think something to bear in mind is that it's much easier to leave medicine than it is to get into it

I don’t agree with this. In theory it’s right, but the reality is quite different. Very few drs actually do leave medicine. I think there is quite a high ‘drop out’ rate afterF2, but I haven’t followed the stats closely enough to know what % of those drop outs actually just take some time off and then come back. Once you have scaled up the ranks it’s very difficult to actually leave. I know lots and lots of consultant colleagues on about £100k who really don’t enjoy their jobs anymore but are stuck. They are often the main or only breadwinner and any career change would involve a shed load more work and a huge salary cut, which most people in their 40s can’t afford. Medicine qualifies you for literally nothing else.

@Waitingandwaitingandwaiting
Completely agree about the difficulty in leaving medicine in your 40s and medicine does not teach you anything else. Saying that, leaving any well paid job in your 40s is difficult due to other commitments in your life. It does offer job security like no other profession.
It is not a job you go everyday to encounter new problems that challenges you intellectually,this can be frustrating. You tend to get good at certain things and do the same thing day in and out.
Although training years can be difficult there is flexibility when you reach consultant level. There are very few stable jobs that I am aware of where you don't have to put in long hours before you reach a salary equivalent to a consultant.
NHS is not an easy place to work with due to its management structure. I don't think it is any different to other public sector job.
It is good that he is looking at the job prospects after natural science degree. My understanding is a lot of students leave science to do other things - work in industry, law, finance etc.,
It is not easy for some 18 year olds to take in all the information to decide regarding their future. He can always take gap year and decide if he is finding this difficult

I didn't have children until I completed my training. I now work part-time and earn what most people would consider to be a good full-time salary. So for me Medicine has fitted in well with family life. I'm a GP and realise other specialities may differ.

Truthfully, I could probably have chosen a more lucrative career (a lot of my friends from uni are in the City), but I enjoy my job and I can afford a nice lifestyle, so I'm glad I did it.

He can actually do both, by choosing an intercalated degree. Probably best of both worlds.

I would suggest a straight Biology degree - offered at lots of top universities and many will offer modules from human anatomy all the way to zoology. That way if he decides medicine is definitely for him, he can spend 3 years doing an interesting degree and gaining more work experience, and then go for grad med, and if he doesn't then he can spend 3 years doing an interesting degree and do something else! I also discovered during my undergraduate degree the huge variety of STEM jobs that I didn't even know existed when I was 18 and choosing a degree, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to go for those jobs without a less specialised STEM degree.

There is nothing wrong in doing post grad medicine and would suit certain students. Don't forget it is a lot harder to gain a medical degree place as post grad and it also takes longer to finish.
I have had trainees who have come via post grad medicine and they are all extremely good.
Intercalated degree in science is good and some top universities you can drop after this gaining a BSc if you really don't want to pursue medicine- UCL, imperial and Oxbridge have compulsory intercalated degree but he can choose to do a this in other universities as well .

I echo the pp who said don’t do medicine unless its a passion. Don’t do it because you are clever or for the status. Do it because you couldn’t imagine doing anything else.
Your patients deserve that sort of doctor and it will help you build resilience to get o through the difficult times.

I work in pharma in clinical trials research.
Most people have a biological sciences /biomedical sciences degree, lots of people have PhDs. There is still a lot of paperwork as you’d expect dealing with people and new medicines.
There’s lots of careers within the industry, not just sales/marketing but all of the work in R&D from creating a new medicine, trials, regulatory, safety, medical - to getting it onto the market where it can be prescribed to patients.
Good pay as you work your way up the ladder. Flexibility with working from home.

An intercalated degree is excellent advice- he was looking at unis offering those but I hadn't quite appreciated the additional flexibility that would give (maybe he has but not sure!)

We had a good chat last night and a brief one this morning, he is still cogitating but I have shared the advice here with him.

I'm so grateful to you all for taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences to hopefully help him make the right decision.

I haven't read the thread in full but Oxbridge for Medicine is very research based. I'd vote for Medicine but he can always do postgraduate Medicine if he chooses to. If he's Year 12 now then wait until his results - I know a few people who had that decision made for them by their AS results.

What A levels is he doing ?

I see a lot of people who studied medicine have replied but not many who did Natural Sciences, so thought to add my perspective. I chose to do NatSci (or my country's equivalent) over medicine for a number of reasons: patient contact does not appeal to me, while going into depth about the subject I was working on did.

I enjoyed the breadth of my degree and now I can see the benefits of it in terms of the variety of jobs. Looking at people I was on the course with we're all doing such different things, from investigating illnesses and finding cures for them, to more pure research, to working in university administration, or academia, or corporate situations. A number of us also did a PhD, including me, thougha t that point I decided I did not want to continue in academia with psot docs etc so moved into a more corporate environment.

I am now working as a material science specialist in an engineering firm and I love the flexibility of the job. Can work from home if required/take a day off when I need to/reduce hours at work/flexible working days, precisely because there are limited people to deal with. I love the variety of my job and that no day is the same, and that i get to do what I love most (planning tests, analysing data and write report) day in day out (while I have very competent colleagues who do the lab work, which I find less inspiring). I feel you can really mould the job into what you want. The job flexibility will, however, depend on what area you go into though e.g. when I was working in a microbiology lab I immediately knew that it wasnøt for me (the bacteria are like having MANY children, who you have to feed, rehouse, make sure your culture doesn't get 'sick'/contaminated etc etc).

I definitely do not regret not going for medicine especially when looking at friends who did. I have had a much easier working life (no nights, no life/death situations, no patient complaints etc). I also earn more than enough to do what I want when I want without having to worry too much about money. However, whether your son will be happy will depend on what he really enjoys and wants to do, as most other posters said. If it's patient contact, maybe medicine, but if its having the time to go into depth into a scientific question, or a broad understanding of scientific fields, then natural sciences might be the right way for him as it was for me, especially as then you are not limtied to medical research but all the other areas of scientific research there are. I also like how much easier it is to work abroad with a scientific job (I have moved country three times as I wanted to) over being a doctor (where often you would need to get qualifications in that new country and/or learn the language before you can work there).

Now I see I have gone on for waaay too long (I really like my job ) so I'll stop here.

I was going to suggest looking at intercalating. I lived with two med students in my first year of university. At 18 with no knowledge of medicine etc it was obvious one had really natural people skills and a desire to help people. The other one loved the academic challenge and had a brilliant mind but had the people skills of a slug. The first is now a consultant in orthopaedics (which surprised me) and the second went into general practice. Their motivations, strengths and desires were totally different and neither ended up in specialities that you might have picked for them at 18.

@NyDanske that's really inspiring, thank you for sharing your experience!

@ProfessorLayton1 - he's doing maths, physics, chemistry and biology. He did well at gcse - 9 grade 9s, an 8 and a 7- and is predicted A-star, A-star, AA. (Sorry don't how how to do the * without inadvertently bolding the rest of the sentence!)

@Sailingblue that's interesting, and I hear you - it is hard to plan your whole life at 17 and thoroughly know which path or direction you want to take.

@CreditCrackers yes he's keen on Oxbridge

So he's still thinking but I attended an interesting parents and carers virtual open day at UCL today which answered some questions about research careers.

The medicine person claimed that junior doctors working hours are much better since the introduction of the working time directive - but that's been around years and didn't seem to make any difference in the recent memoirs I've read - any thoughts?

I work in medical research and I would definitely suggest going for medicine if he can cope with studying and the junior doctor years - a lot of interesting roles in pharmaceutical companies are for registered doctors!

@CrispsForTea that's interesting- the chap today who ran the medical sciences department was suggesting that most people who work in medical research are not doctors and that ds would not be disadvantaged in any way by not being a doctor- but I did wonder!! Do you find that the roles for registered doctors are better paid/more senior/both?

I think he could definitely cope with the training and academics but isn't sure he wants to work on the wards long term, he's more interested in research (at this stage - I know things can change!) - he's a bit worried whether he might be closing off options by not qualifying as a doctor if he goes the med research route.

Of course if he chooses Natsci he could decide he wants to go into materials science or something for which presumably it wouldn't matter that he hasn't qualified as a doctor first?

It depends what side he wants to do. In my (limited) experience, the scientists have a lot more involvement in the early trials (finding drugs that might work, testing in the lab etc). Once you get to the in-human testing stage, there are of course still a lot of scientists involved, but the leads are usually registered doctors. The people whose names are on the publications usually seem to be doctors rather than scientists, as well - the scientists don't tend to get a lot of credit as all their ideas are owned by the company they work for!!

Obviously I'm talking private sector - if he wanted to go the academic route, he'd have a lot more control over and recognition for his research, but it wouldn't be front line medical stuff.

He shd do natural sciences at Cambridge if possible. I know someone from school who did this degree and it stands one in good stead for jobs wherever they want as long as they get a good degree. Dunno anyone who would recommend medicine.

Watching this with interest! My DS is in Y11 and is considering medicine but not only have his GCSEs been cancelled, so too have any hopes of hospital work experience / volunteering in a hospice / care home!!

Just to add another option into the mix, if it’s drug research your DS is interested in, there are some highly competitive degree apprenticeships held by pharmaceutical companies, e.g. uk.gsk.com/en-gb/careers/apprenticeships/degree-apprenticeships/.

My sister's degree is in Life Sciences and she works in a hospital - her job sounds a bit grim to me (testing bodily fluids for diseases, yuk) but she is as happy as a pig in muck doing it. Not really a people's person but loves science and genetics so tricks that box Your career needs to suit your personality as well as your qualifications but sure you don't need me to tell you that! I wish him luck, he sounds like a clever lad whichever path he takes.