To ask you - DS medicine or natural sciences

[Pumpkintopf]

Hi all, would really welcome some views on this -

Ds yr 12 has up till now been focused on applying for medicine this year. Lately however (very recently) he's not so sure and to be honest some of the stuff I've read - mainly junior doctor accounts of life in the NHS - do make me afraid for him, the hours and lack of support seem so intense. I do also understand that these may not be wholly representative- or maybe they are-DH and I are not medics.

He was always quite keen on a research type role anyway so given that, would natural science or similar be a better fit? Would love any views from those who have experienced either/know people who have...

Yes, true - there are certainly boring parts to every job!

If he likes research and drug related stuff he might be interested in either biomedical science or a pharmacology degree?

I would suggest looking on the websites of the universities he would be interested in. Each course they offer should give more information on what modules they include and a description of the module.

Would he be interested in Pharmacy perhaps?

I wish I'd done that sometimes, but didn't really know about it as a degree when I applied to university (for NatSci). Everybody I know who did it loves their job (some are in hospitals, others in independent chemists/chains, and I know one who did a PhD and works in the pharma industry now). A few have had babies and work as locums, so there's flexibility in there too.

Medicine... I never wanted to do. I had a lot of friends who did it, and some of it sounded really interesting, but I know I wouldn't have liked the 'ill people' bit! I think people generally know if they want to do it or not. Most places give you the option to intercalate now, which can be really helpful if you're having a bit of a crisis about whether it is really for you — that year away doing something different can be really good for people.

It is as bad as the books say.

I am only enjoying my career for the first time ever as I am in a shortage specialty, have opted out of my 'career' and now am a part time locum. More money, less work, less responsibility. And if people aren't nice to me I can walk and have a new job tomorrow.

But thats me at the top of the tree career wise, after having had the rest of 25 years having had bad hours, short staffing and bullying. Everyone wants to retire early too

A friend's dd is doing biomedical science at Bristol. Would that be an option?

Also I saw you said "he liked understanding what the different drugs did and how they interacted" - has he considered pharmacy?

As for medicine, if he likes people, that's good. Is he also good with his hands? You need to be dextrous to be a surgeon.

I was going to suggest Pharmacology. It's a great degree and can lead to a lot of jobs in the Pharma industry.

The memoirs ring true - but they are only one perspective and unbalanced (inevitably, they’d be dull if they included all the just normal nice days at work). I also think things have improved significantly since then, especially compared to Adam Kay’s work - supervision is better.
I’m a GP and I love my job. It’s also flexible and offers me plenty of choice about what I do and how I work. It’s really tough too, the anxiety about making a mistake gets to me, hours are long and very intense - but it’s a privilege. Form filling happens in all jobs I think - no more so in medicine than elsewhere.
Also it would be very easy for him to become a medical researcher from an undergraduate medical degree.
Depends what he wants really!

@Pumpkintopf

Thank you Anna and sluggish you've hit the nail on the head there I think - he said at his hospital work experience, he liked understanding what the different drugs did and how they interacted, was also comfortable chatting to patients - but was put off by the huge amount of form-filing that the doctors seemed to have to do.

What about pharmacy? We're learning all the medicine side of things (the degree is the same as the medics for the first 2 years) AND we're learning about drug interactions etc.

Food for thought. I'll encourage him to look at those options including pharmacy.

Anna that's what I feared.

My DS is similar, has always been interested in all things medical but doesn't want to do medicine.

He's looking at degrees involving Immunology, Biochemistry, Microbiology Pharmacology - that sort of thing. Wants to be a medical research scientist.

It is easy to do research - including full time - as a doctor. Plus, you get paid a clinical salary to do it, which is much higher than other researchers get. There is also the option to go back to clinical work so you will never be short of employment - whereas post-doc jobs are hard to come by and poorly paid.

I think something to bear in mind is that it's much easier to leave medicine than it is to get into it.

He could spend the 5 years gaining experience (really the only way to work out if he does want to be a doctor) and then go into research. I chose the science then research route, and work with many medical doctors who are now clinical researchers. I do sometimes regret not doing medicine as it opens a lot of doors in terms of the work you can do

pharmacy would ALSO be a lot of form filling, whereas pharmacology (the study of drugs and their development) might be a good option if it's something he's interested in

I work in a Medical School as a researcher.
DD has applied to study medicine (be a doctor).
She is a people person. Research slightly bores her.

I am a bean counter. I like research. I would get upset about trying to help hopeless people.

Point is: they are different jobs. OP's son needs to decide if he wants to treat people or find out facts about health. Those are ways to help make his decision.

Thanks all, I'll be working through the posts here with him this evening to see if it helps with his decision making. I really appreciate you flagging up the different career paths etc as it's just entirely outside my frame of reference.

@riveted1 would he have to still do his F1 (?) first year on the wards after graduating to qualify in order to take that route?

Don't encourage him or persuade him to study medicine just support his decision. Once he gets his medical degree and full GMC registration he can do many other things but only be can know if he has the enthusiasm and stamina to get there. (It's not just being clever and good at science it's a lifestyle decision)

I’m a consultant and would say no. I loved being a doctor when I was single, but have found it increasingly hard in a relationship and now with DC. It’s relentless and there is never an off day (even when you are officially off you still get phone calls and messages that need near instant replies). I also find it quite dull. As a pp said you do end up doing the same-ish things every day, with the occasionally interesting patient. If I had my time again I’d do pharmacy, dentistry or optometry. All well paid and with actual down time and private practice. Working in the nhs is utterly shit.

Why don't you let your DS decide what he wants to do? It's up to him, not you

@Summermummer of course it's entirely his decision! I've no idea what gave you the impression that I thought otherwise- was it something I said?

Very difficult decisionto make at his age

Research much better paid as a doctor, as @TroublesomeTrucks says. And studying medicine fascinating!

@Pumpkintopf sorry from the sound of the post I thought you were the one having doubts and trying to ask for opinions about what your son should do. I understand you want the best for him and it’s a valid question to ask, but try not to sway his opinion either way.
It’s better he makes his own mistakes or it may lead to resentment further down the line, even if this is not the intent

It’s easy to look back on the training years and muse over how awful but “actually it’s maybe not that bad really” they were when you’re established in your specialty and you don’t have to go through that shit again.

DH and I are both medical, our children do well at school. We won’t be encouraging them to do medicine, even in Australia where weekend on-call allows a break for sleep and where doctors are better supported legally if things go wrong. If they have a vocational pull I’ll be supportive though.

Has he thought about where to apply for natural sciences ?
I remember that not many places offer this and he may need to look at Biology/ physics or chemistry at some universities. I admit that I did not look into this as Dd was the one researching about it. I do remember that she really liked natural sciences at Cambridge but can't remember her talking about it after visiting other universities, could be her interest had died down by that time.
He really can't go wrong with either of his choices.. it is really good that he is carefully considering his career choices. Good luck for his future.

Thanks summer - absolutely, I've told him I just want him to be happy and will support him whatever he decides.

He had a read of this thread earlier and still isn't sure - he's going to do some research into careers after a nat sci degree I think, just to compare.

He says he is feeling a bit overwhelmed with thoughts of UCAT/BMAT plus his a-levels etc. He's coped really well with keeping up his schoolwork during lockdown but maybe it's got to him more than I realised. He's currently working til 9/10pm most nights - not on set work, on additional revision etc that he's set himself.

Ultimately I've tried to say think beyond the immediate hurdles of entry requirements etc to the career beyond and what he really wants to do - but I know it's tough! I knew what I wanted to do at his age but didn't have a clue how to get there - medicine is a pretty clear pathway but maybe he'd come across something in the natural sciences area that really sparked an interest.

Difficult for him but absolutely it has to be his choice.