To think that teachers should be able to distinguish BAME students by name?

[maggiethecat]

I have 2 DDs at different secondary schools and we have recently been having animated table discussions arising from the BLM protests. Both girls separately experienced teachers repeatedly confusing their names with the handful of other BAME students in the class. 13 yo DD cannot understand why she is repeatedly confused with another BAME girl who is much taller than her and unlike DD wears glasses. Apparently the offending teachers do not have this memory deficit with white students in the class

One year, I met my new Y6 class and we had 6 girls from Nigeria who were new to the school. Their first names were very anglicised, think Susan, Karen etc. Their surnames were Nigerian and although all different, they were all very similar, and names I'd never come across before. I did find it hard to learn their surnames as I wasn't using them to address the girls, and rarely needed to write them down. I noticed that their registration details had a different first name which was Nigerian, and they were all using their middle names as first names. I asked one of the girls about this one day, as it was very unusual. She told me that some parents give their children names that were easier for other people to remember. I thought it was really telling and sad that these parents felt it was better for their children's acceptance to give them English names rather than names from their own culture.
We need to be honest here, it can be very hard to learn names that you don't come across every day, whose pronunciation is based on a phonics system different to English. This happens in lots of languages. E.g., Jorge is pronounced 'horhay' in Spanish. Learning languages as you get older is much harder.
Seating plans only work if the teacher is actually sitting at their desk looking at it, I don't know of any teacher who purposely mis names a student, in primary schools lots of children call the teachers 'mum' or call male teachers 'miss', in secondary schools most students, and staff, call teachers 'miss' or 'sir' even though they know their names.

Of course this is unconscious racial bias.

The teacher concerned may well think they are not racist, but this is a form of it.

And people who think it isn't need to read up on white fragility.

(I'm white and extremely privileged, if that's relevant).

My son is always getting called the name of another boy in his class. They have the same birthday and both names begin with the same letter.
My youngest son is always called his older brothers name. On a zoom call the other day the teacher called another boy by his older brothers name.
I always get 2 particular clients names mixed up (same race as me)
I have a friend who is non-white and she is always getting us white people mixed up.
I can barely get me own children’s names right and even get the girl/boys names mixed up!

So I think it’s not necessarily racist but most likely race-related. As people have said it’s a well known thing that people find it easier to recognise people who are the same race as them. Doesn’t make it right but it doesn’t make someone racist, just means they have to work a little harder to remember particular names. I imagine your daughters pick up and notice the tiles they are mixed up as it relates to them, they won’t take notice of every time the teacher talks to other children as they will he busy with thier work etc.

A lot of people are justifying this by saying they get their children's names mixed up all the time. I'm pretty sure that happens to everyone but surely you don't look at one child and think it's another?

It's not just names being mixed up but the actual children too, seeing a BAME child and mixing them up with a completely different child. This is unacceptable.

I think there are some slightly unrealistic expectations here. I have a very foreign maiden name, and categorically wouldn't expect anyone to pronounce it correctly. Neither would anyone in my family either. To me, if someone pronounced my surname correctly (and they weren't from the same cultural background as us), it would be a bit like an English person calling Florence Firenze.

And some names are just extremely difficult for English speakers to say. DH has relatives with names I cannot pronounce properly because one of the key sounds in their name just does not exist in either English or my family's languages. If I make an effort to say the name properly, they howl with laughter.

And, you know, this is part of cultural exchange. My grandfather couldn't really say my name properly , so he just called me "tooty" my entire life (my name is nothing like "tooty"). DH's family have mind blocks with my name because it doesn't have the typically female ending in their language, so they add bits to it so it fits.

To the op, I would suggest that her daughter makes a name badge and wears it in class, and says to the teacher that she noticed said teacher was getting mixed up and she thought she'd help said teacher out because she was worried that the teacher wouldn't be able to mark her class contribution correctly. I doubt very much that the teacher is doing it on purpose.

mawbags
If it’s just racism why have numerous teachers on the thread said it happens with white students too?

OP- it’s difficult to tell if the teacher is racist. She might be but it’s probably more likely she’s a bit lazy/rubbish with names. I mixed up two sets of year 7 students last year. Two little blond girls with pony tails and 2 tall black girls who had braids. I think I probably use hair as an identifier a lot. I find it much easier to tell older children (of all races) apart as they tend to have more individual looks.

There are some awful stories on this thread though. How dare people say they won’t use a person’s name. Surely they should face disciplinary action for that?

Yes it’s race bias and not realising that you struggle to notice the difference or even question why you would get those two girls mixed up is the main issue.
If I struggled because all I saw was black face I would try fucking extra hard to distinguish them. But if you’re not bother about your racial bias then you won’t.

And this thread is depressing. I mean who says “why does everything have to be about race” when this is so clearly about race.

Sad to say that the pupils I mix up the most are white young girls who seem to wear their hair the same. It took me a term to call the 3 samey white girls by their right names.
I think it is the demographic of where we live. We have more Filipino children than children who are black. But most of our children are white.
It isn't nice that I mix people up but when you only see them once a week it can be hard to get to know them and build relationships.

Teachers should absolutely remember names. However I frequently mix up children's names as I teach 200 different students everyday. My school is majority black African; This year there were two blond white girls in my gcse class and I got them the wrong way around at least once a lesson for two years; your post has made me think that them being in a minority in terms of their appearance probably was a factor in that. I find that once you've got two names intertwined it's near impossible to disentangle them. No fun for the kids involved though!

Teacher here. Predominantly white area. Generally pretty good with names but sometimes in each class there would be some I mixed up. Miss! You've just called me Fred again! I'm not Fred, I'm John!
OP you say your daughter and the other girl are the only ones to get mixed up? How does she know this? In this class yes, but how does she know that the same teacher doesn't mix up John and Fred in another class? She's not there. She only sees what she sees in her own class
Whenever I have taught a BAME pupil I was extra careful to get it right for fear of singling them out for being different

"MN never like to admit people are operating on racial bias, but it's pretty obvious when you're on the receiving end"

But I am not white, and so is my ds. And I don't think it's racial thing. As PP said, it does happen to white people too. If we take offence in everything, it just makes our lives even harder.

It matters. It not even about the science of how we group and recall humans and their names. It's really not. BAME children are 'othered' generally in the school environment. Black children, in particular, are far more likely to be excluded from school than any other ethnic category of child. Even where BAME children do well in subjects, the expectation that they are not as academically able impacts on careers advice and post-16 destinations. So getting BAME children's names right matters on so many levels, its about inclusion and belonging and that they are valued in the educational environment. We need to stop blanding that out. If you can't remember the names of kids in your class, whether it is age, learning difficulty, life overload, use a seating plan as someone noted. In HE use name labels in small group teaching.

Because it absolutely matters.

I try my best to learn names, and in fact if you are “unusual” I’ll probably remember your name the fastest. If you are a small blond ish boy called Sam, Jake, Jack etc, you have no chance. I’ll still be looking at the seating plan come Christmas.

I do stuggle to remember which child is Ay Jay, and which is Aj ay. They are both spelt Ajay.

completely agree with Gwynfluff and flyingagainstreason

One of my previous teachers constantly mixed up my Ds with his best friend who is mixed race . My Ds is white .

Context - refereeing at an international sport - you get a group of 7 names of varied nationality, with nationality code

Names wise, when you have assimilated the phonic rules of one language it is quite difficult to read an unfamiliar word without reverting to the familiar phonics rules. I can happily read and pronounce most English and French derived names and could make a decent stab at German if I am aware it's German. Russian is pretty phonetic too, as are many of the transliterations into English script of most Japanese names.

More problematic is the English script versions of Chinese names and languages where familiar letter combinations make different phonetic sounds to those in English.

The other group I have trouble with is American/Canadian names but this is largely because you don't know for sure which set of "rules" you should be applying.

Attaching names to people is usually just about possible within the time of the pool, mostly because most have name/country labels on their backs!

To overcome that DH deliberately learns their names in class - forces himself to focus on their difference

If you're not aware of your prejudice then you can't overcome it 🤷‍♀️

Exactly. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. It's just not enough to shrug your shoulders and say 'Oh it happened to Luke once too so it can't be racist'. We must do better.

Anyone can get a name mixed up. It has nothing to do with the race of the persons involved. Slightly connected issue I think - there were twins at my school who looked identical but were always getting mistaken for each other. We never thought for a moment it was a race thing.

A quiet girl once told me she only speaks to teachers that call her by her name. All teachers know the names of difficult kids but some do not notice quiet kids. Less to do with colour or race more to do with personality

Yes, the teacher's personality.

What you're describing is another marginalised group being overlooked in the classroom - that doesn't mean that race isn't also one of the ways in which pupils can be marginalised.

Group x being discriminated against doesn't negate the fact that group y might also be discriminated against.

One of the tricks I used to use for this was getting a new class to introduce themselves by using an adjective they felt most described them when they said their name.

So we would go round the class and the pupils would say "my name is Eli and I am serious; my name is Rana and I am fierce; my name is Zenobia and I am sporty" etc.

It gives you an extra hook to connect the name with a person, and it works. I can still remember some of them fifteen years later!

My brown kids are mixed up with a different name (with other brown kids) and I have even had my name mixed up. I do believe it's due to unconscious racism as it's always with another brown person. I find it a little irritating but I don't speak up. It makes me worry that they don't know my children as individuals.

I'm 100% sure it's to do with race and anyone who says otherwise is in denial or don't think it can be true just because they havent experienced it and lived with this.

(I have no chips on my shoulder!!).

@Lancrelady80

YANBU to say teachers should get your children's names right. And it may be a race thing for those staff - we (and you) can't know.

But you are BU to ignore all the posters giving you many examples of mix ups and saying that it just happens sometimes regardless of race, and saying we are all either blind, racist or apologist. It seems (rightly or not) that you came on here with the mindset that staff are institutionally racist towards BAME students either consciously or not. And you won't listen to others saying that may not be so. Not everything is about race.

Regardless of race, every teacher should get names correct. Sometimes it's harder than others. But as professionals (and decent human beings) you make an extra effort with those you muddle. It's just rude not to, and must make pupils feel like they don't matter. I have a name similar to (but not) a very common British name. I am constantly called by the other name, all through school and now in work too. It's annoying but you roll your eyes and get on with it.

As to the poster saying white people can't experience racism...what a load of bollocks! Totally context dependent. You may as well say "it's not possible for men to experience domestic violence." It absolutely is possible, but far less likely.

Men can experience domestic violence. I believe I'm correct in stating that white people can experience racial prejudice, but not racism, because we are in a system of white privilege.

I haven't read the whole thread. I was a teacher. I'm not great with names and faces. I rely on hair to help me identify people. When there are particular fashions in boys hairstyles, that really hits me hard. There were 4 little blond boys with the same hair style in my teaching practice class.

My most recent foray back into teaching, I confused all the kids on photo day. They'd all had haircuts or an extra smart hair style.

I try really really hard to familiarise myself with different features- eye shape, nose shape. I'm just not great at it.

Women at church who wear extensions or wigs I find especially hard. It's embarrassing.

I’m a bit shocked by the race to deny this. Part of the gaslighting that goes on towards black and brown people all the time. OP Yanbu. Of course this is racism. The teacher sees their black or brownness before they see anything else. It’s upsetting, and so is the gaslighting. It’s not as if black people go around assuming every negative behaviour towards them is influenced by racism. They have a lifetime of learning to detect when it most likely is and when it most likely isn’t. Part of white privilege is not having to think about that shit. I know that because I’m white and I don’t have to think about this stuff, ever

Adding to my last post- it is and it isn't racism.
It's not intentional racism, but it's effectively racist, despite my awareness and attempts to do better.