To think that teachers should be able to distinguish BAME students by name?

[maggiethecat]

I have 2 DDs at different secondary schools and we have recently been having animated table discussions arising from the BLM protests. Both girls separately experienced teachers repeatedly confusing their names with the handful of other BAME students in the class. 13 yo DD cannot understand why she is repeatedly confused with another BAME girl who is much taller than her and unlike DD wears glasses. Apparently the offending teachers do not have this memory deficit with white students in the class

@NameChange84 I would say I average about one-two wrong names per day, sometimes it's just a complete mind blank. Rarely is it the same pupil, lots of occasions are on the corridor when I can't 'place' a student. I don't struggle with pronunciation UNLESS there are two students with the same spelling pronounced differently. For some reason that blows my brain and if I need their attention quickly I sometimes get it wrong. To be honest most of these students are the same ethnicity as me.

I do think that if you are a permanent member of staff, it’s correct that if you repeatedly mix up names you should face disciplinary action.

You'd have to fire most of my colleagues then.

Repeated mixing up of BAME names because you can't be bothered to learn them is obviously unacceptable. However let's not get our pitchforks out for the odd mix up that has nothing to do with race.

This happens to the BAME people I know in their community. I had two friends who were completely different who were constantly confused by everyone. The only feature they shared was that they were biracial. It’s quite sad to know your defining feature to many is your racial heritage. This is exactly to sort of insidious racism the U.K. is so good at. Let’s stop pretending that people don’t see colour.

Great post at 5:40 NameChange84.

It’s just a bit ironic coming from someone who calls themselves NameChange on the importance of names, but good points.

But you work harder to ensure you get someone's name right who is a different race to yours, surely, pikachubaby. Anything else is not acceptable.
And no one on this thread is assuming you're racist because you're white

(The teacher would hopefully make extra effort though)

Tyrant that's why pickachu said this ffs! Of course you try hard. But occasionally mixing two students up of any race doesn't mean the teacher is racist.

How could it possibly be racist to suggest that the teacher would be being racist?

Because the teacher is white! If it was a BAME teacher it wouldn't be a race issue just a mix up of names? That is what the original thread was about.

This is clearly due to race. Probably not malicious but the teacher has obviously categorised certain children together for a reason. I grew up in a very white context and had trouble with this initially when I left that situation. I was mortified and made a conscious effort to counter it, which worked. For those asking 'why does everything need to be about race' I expect OP's daughters feel the same!

Sometimes questions on here are ridiculous.

I don’t imagine this is a race issue - I teach 150 students in one year group once every two weeks. takes me ages to learn their names and I often get names mixed up. I have to boys in different groups who I’ve been calling each other’s names all year - can’t seem to get it out of my head on which is which and they are not BAME.

Whilst I don't condone the lack of attention to being able to identify pupils, it is marginally better than one teacher at my secondary school. He was openly racist and would tell black kids that they "all look the same to me", or tell them to "go back to the jungle".
This was in the early 1980s, he was approaching retirement and despite complaints, he wasn't sacked. Thankfully he was a supply teacher and we rarely had to interact with him.
He was breathtakingly rude to all the kids, but downright nasty to the ones who weren't white.

In contrast, I know two head teachers (between them with 50 years' experience), that manage large primary schools. They don't teach lessons yet could name any pupil they encounter that is, or had been, at their school.

When I was at school there was a group of us that had blonde hair and I got called all the names at some point - the teacher knew my name but an honest mistake- I've done it before in my class too- also I've said good boy- to a girl before (think it's because I have sons so just slips of the tongue lol) I respect all their individuality however small slips can happen! X

Yes slips can happen for various reasons if course. I got confused with my best friend at school. We were both white and were muddled up because we were friends. The two black girls in my year were not close friends. They were also constantly muddled up. That was because they were black. Kids know this.

The difficulty people of one race have in recognising the faces of people who belong to another is a phenomenon that has been studied by scientists. It's not just white people who have the difficulty. It affects Asian and black people too.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/some-people-suffer-from-face-blindness-for-other-races/

More exposure to those of another race, does eventually make people better at the task.

I think in the situation described by the OP, however, the teacher could at least have used the difference in height and the wearing/not wearing of glasses to help. And even given the known difficulties, it's surprising that she has not developed some familiarity by now.

@ZombieFan

How is a 13 yo back at school? Seems an odd time to be making this post.

It's not an odd time if you have been discussing the Black Lives Matter protests at home.

We do all tend to be better at distinguishing between people from the same ethnic group as us. It called the cross race effect. That's why it's important we have training in unconscious bias. It doesn't seem to be a coincidence that it didn't happen in Gulabjamoon's school.

It is hard for teachers (or anyone who needs to know a lot of people by name at work) to learn everyone's name but they do need to be aware of unconscious bias and use strategies aimed at helping them improve how they distinguish between different students so YANBU.

@TooOldForThis67

How could it possibly be racist to suggest that the teacher would be being racist?

Because the teacher is white! If it was a BAME teacher it wouldn't be a race issue just a mix up of names? That is what the original thread was about.

Yes, I know what the thread is about. So you think the OP is being racist towards the teacher, because the teacher is white?

I have difficulty recognising some faces particularly someone from the Philippines. To the point that if a friend of mine is somewhere out of context I don't recognise her straight away.

I find it embarrassing and hate it. I looked it up and this is something that some people can struggle with. It's to do with the brain only seeing the very subtle differences in faces that are of their own culture or what they have grown up and learnt to distinguish from a baby.

I don't have this difficulty with anyone who is black or anyone with Asian heritage.

I would like to think I would be able to tell the difference with such differing features in your case but some people may not.

It could be a race issue but there are other factors that could cause it.

Is it the case that you can see differences between people of your own race more easily than other races? I'd be interested in understanding that more. I still think if you had two children of BAME and 30 children who were white - you should be able to tell the two BAME children apart as easily as all 28 white kids - it would worry me that the teacher is sort of clumping "them" together. When I was at uni studying a predominantly 90%+ male subject my tutor constantly got me and the only other girl in our tutor group mixed up- i'm of Mediterranean colouring/brown eyes /had long curly brown hair- she was very pale skinned/blue eyed -short very blonde hair and he could not remember our names- I don't think he cared enough to tell us apart

But if irs not BAME related in the op's case, why is her name mixed up with another BAME child's name?

I don't know if in this case it's down to bmrace or not, to me this would depend on context and I think I'd have to know more. I always get names mixed up, often between my toddler, my dh and my cat so if I did the same in class it wouldn't be down to race but stupidity on my own part!

I’m a teacher and it definitely can be a race thing. That doesn’t mean it is in every instance though. Somethimes there are just pairs of kids whose names get blurred in your brain. I had two white girls in my year 11 class this year that I really struggled with. Despite having taught them for years and knowing who was who, I would find I confused them frequently if I wasn’t concentrating. They weren’t massively similar in appearance and their names were totally different, one Irish and one English, but once you’ve got a set of kids confused once it sticks. I work in a school where the students are mostly black though, so even though I am white perhaps race is playing a role? Who knows? It is worth considering whether, when there are just a few children of a particular ethnicity in a class, we are more likely to confuse them. I know I’ve also had pairs of students from other ethnicities (not always the same ethnicity as one another) whose names I have confused regularly in the past. I’m not touchy about exploring whether race could be playing a role in some of those times. The brain can be weird and discussing unconscious bias should be fine without people reacting as if they have been accused of being KKK members. Defensiveness around discussions of race isn’t helpful.

Poor teachers.

Yanbu OP.
Oh god, I have done this. It's very embarrassing (not expecting sympathy).
It easy to mix up kids and I've done it with blondes and redheaded kids too (and middle aged white guys).
I can absolutely believe it happens more with BAME people though and it must feel awful.

My DD is fair with blue eyes and teachers often confuse her with her friend who has the same colouring.

I’ve always had the greatest sympathy for teachers, especially after having taught for a short time myself. Remembering 30 names was very difficult for me. Seating plans don’t help if people move about — it’s worse if you confidently say the wrong name. From what I still see, teachers try so hard and get so much abuse, I’m glad I didn’t stick with it.