To think that teachers should be able to distinguish BAME students by name?

[maggiethecat]

I have 2 DDs at different secondary schools and we have recently been having animated table discussions arising from the BLM protests. Both girls separately experienced teachers repeatedly confusing their names with the handful of other BAME students in the class. 13 yo DD cannot understand why she is repeatedly confused with another BAME girl who is much taller than her and unlike DD wears glasses. Apparently the offending teachers do not have this memory deficit with white students in the class

@RubyViolet

Report to the School Head.

Is this a joke?

I currently teach identical twins. Of course it can be difficult to tell them apart, but I don't want them to feel lumped together so I make a mental note on who is wearing what, so I can get their names correct. It's a small effort on my part, but it does make such a huge difference to kids to feel "seen" by their teachers.

RubyViolet, was intending to ask school to raise with the teachers for them to consider if this is happening. It requires honest introspection if it's possible that it's not the odd forgetting a child's name but rather homogenising a group of students.

ElizabethMainWaring - why is it a joke? I expect that Ruby is suggesting that I raise it so that teachers can try to do better.

I am a teacher, I mix names up a lot. Generally the kids don't look alike (though sometimes they do - but it doesn't seem to be a major factor) but often the names are similar. I've often mixed up names with the same first letters or names from a particular language. I know well that Sophie is Sophie and not Sally...but when I'm looking at Sophie, Sally often comes out.

The teacher could be like me, or they could be being lazy and refusing to learn the names. Who knows?

You say they don't look alike and have different names. I don't think the teacher is being deliberately racist but maybe needs to be pulled up on it when it happens, ie 'my name is , why do you keep calling me *. My son goes to a very multi cultural school and I've struggled to pronounce his friends names. I really struggled with 2 of them, always got them muddled up with each other. It took a little time tbh. The teacher really should be more used to it though.

I have spent my whole life being muddled with my sister. By my MOTHER. And there's 16 years age gap between me and my sister. Some people just struggle with names.

Is the issue that the children are being mis-labelled (as in names are known but teacher sometimes says Name A to Child B, and Name B to Child A because a wire has gone astray at that point) or doesn't have the name at all, or genuinely cannot differentiate between them? Are the names similar? Just wondering where it's going wrong.

I had two white boys in my class this year, and for some reason I REALLY struggled to match their names correctly. It sometimes happens for no particular reason (other than heads full of thousands of names and faces over the years.)

I can appreciate how frustrating it must be for you and your poor girls, whatever the reason. If it's any consolation, the teacher is probably mortified each time they do it. But agree that if they struggle, they really should be making an extra effort - I certainly did.

There is wilful refusal to understand the issue here from some. Usual MN blindness.

Another girl and I were regularly called by each other’s names in primary. Didn’t look alike, didn’t share an initial. Both white but with not-dissimilar hair. but not the end of the world.

No, I don't think it's acceptable. As a white woman who has taught at numerous schools where BAME children are the majority (in Hackney and Lewisham), I would be absolutely mortified if I had ever done this. I taught a subject where I only saw each class once a week, so I was teaching 600 children per week, plus my form. Teachers have to learn the names of the children they teach, it's part of the job and incredibly rude not to make an effort to do so.

As for the pp who said "a white teacher will genuinely find it more difficult to tell black students apart," that is just lazy and disrespectful. I also taught for a year at a Chinese secondary school, where 100% of my students were of Chinese ethnicity - again, I didn't mix name up - not of my students nor my colleagues.

I'm really cross on your daughter's behalf, OP. It's not on at all.

If they struggle with names they should use a seating plan.

Seating plans work brilliantly in drama and PE

I used to be great at names as a 22yo NQT, now after a few years teaching I'm so much worse! I'm not aware of any racial bias in my memory loss however I was brought up in a very white area so I did initially struggle. I have worked to try and remember names/pronunciations. The most difficult are names spelt the same but students pronounce them differently eg Sara or Kaira.

While I agree that it's very important for teachers to get kids' names right, and to treat kids with respect in that way, I worry that penalizing teachers for what may be an innocent mistake (yes, possibly guilty, but possibly not), may not be a helpful way of lessening racism. It seems to me that what we all should be looking for is more closeness, connection, and positive authenticity, not fear and punishment. What the children experience is hurtful, and that should be addressed--but we don't need a woke mob at the door with pitchforks.

www.sbs.com.au/news/adut-akech-contemplated-not-saying-anything-after-magazine-photo-blunder

Here is an example of an epic failure and she is right I doubt it would have happened to a white model

Maggiethecat: I’m white and worked in inner London secondary schools for years. You learn the names quickly. It’s what teachers do. How can you expect someone to respect you and learn from you if they don’t get your name right.

I meant if you don’t get their name right.

I noticed that quiet children would work really well and talk for me. A quiet girl once told me she only speaks to teachers that call her by her name. All teachers know the names of difficult kids but some do not notice quiet kids. Less to do with colour or race more to do with personality.

@Durgasarrow

While I agree that it's very important for teachers to get kids' names right, and to treat kids with respect in that way, I worry that penalizing teachers for what may be an innocent mistake (yes, possibly guilty, but possibly not), may not be a helpful way of lessening racism. It seems to me that what we all should be looking for is more closeness, connection, and positive authenticity, not fear and punishment. What the children experience is hurtful, and that should be addressed--but we don't need a woke mob at the door with pitchforks.

Once is an innocent mistake - after that is laziness or disrespectful. It's not "woke" to be respectful to BAME students, it's just general courtesy and a bit of effort.

Once is an innocent mistake - after that is laziness or disrespectful.

I get students names (of all ethnicities) mixed up daily. Not lazy or disrespectful, just got over 300 names a year to remember. It really does get more difficult as you get older. I get my own kids mixed up!

@Hercwasonaroll

Once is an innocent mistake - after that is laziness or disrespectful.

I get students names (of all ethnicities) mixed up daily. Not lazy or disrespectful, just got over 300 names a year to remember. It really does get more difficult as you get older. I get my own kids mixed up!

What do you do at parents evening, when the child sits in front of you (normal for secondary age pupils to come to parents evening everywhere I have taught) , the parents then sit down and you can't remember the child's name? As I said above, because my subject isn't core I taught 600 children per week in schools where BAME children made up around 70% of all pupils, I knew their names - I made the effort. It's as important as remembering the content of what you are teaching.

I find it’s an age thing (my age!). I could still name you the kids in my class in 1996 (the vast majority were BAME) but I struggle to remember all those I teach now! When I taught full time I could teach 18 + different classes in a week (with 30 odd kids in each class) so it’s really tough to remember them all.

I get students names mixed up all the time, I'm at a majority white school with only about 10 BAME students so it's nothing to do with race although I feel particularly bad if I get two POC mixed up as I know that's what they think. It might be the two students have similar hair or sit in the same chair in different classes. In one class I got two girls names muddled for over a year I always apologised, I finally got it right and I got the girls name next to her wrong and I've known that child outside of school for eleven years. It's not laziness, disrespectful or because I don't care, I try really hard to remember their names but I really struggle and teach 450 different students, funnily enough I could tell you who dances, swims, plays hockey, has a dog but names just evade me.

@Gulabjamoon

There is wilful refusal to understand the issue here from some. Usual MN blindness.

Absolutely this!!

YANBU at all, of course teachers should make an effort to remember students' names. I remember when I moved from teaching at a school where the majority of pupils were black or mixed to a school where white pupils were the majority. I found it much harder to remember the white pupils' names to begin with and had to really concentrate to distinguish between the various Jacks, Joshuas and Daniels. My main issue was that they were close groups of friends so I rarely saw them separately. I just had to make more of an effort to learn their names, it didn't take long!

My son is white and for the whole of his time at secondary school one Of his teachers called him peter, even at parents evening he referred to him as peter. My son is not named peter but does have a name starting with p.
Not worth worrying about as he still managed to impart the relevant information that alllowed my son to learn and so pass his subject with a very good grade and my son actually liked that teacher even though he got his name wrong for 4 years.