To think that teachers should be able to distinguish BAME students by name?

[maggiethecat]

I have 2 DDs at different secondary schools and we have recently been having animated table discussions arising from the BLM protests. Both girls separately experienced teachers repeatedly confusing their names with the handful of other BAME students in the class. 13 yo DD cannot understand why she is repeatedly confused with another BAME girl who is much taller than her and unlike DD wears glasses. Apparently the offending teachers do not have this memory deficit with white students in the class

As a former high school teacher, I can say that YANBU.

@June2007 - whatever the reason, the point is that the teacher needs to acknowledge that this is happening, examine how/why and take steps to deal with it. That is what is important.
If there is other behaviour of the teacher that, along with this problem identifying BAME students, suggest racist attitudes that is another issue which I expect would be dealt with in those circumstances.

In every class I taught, secondary so often 6 groups every year, there were always a couple, even three, whose names I confused, nothing to do with race either. I also had problems when pupils came with their parents to Parents' Evenings, being used to seeing them in uniform it was sometimes difficult to recognise them in mufti.

mrsBtheparker - but would you not find it strange that, even if it were in just one class, you constantly confused the BAME girls and not any of the other girls and that the girls you confused had little similarity other than skin colour and were in fact distinctly different (eg one tall, other short, one wearing glasses, other not). And would you be offended if someone asked you to consider that perhaps these girls were being homogenised because of race and ask you to work harder at identifying them correctly?

OP - why didn't you explain your point more clearly in the original post about the 'offending teachers' rather than a subsequent drip feed about what you were getting at?

I did it last year to a girl who I taught who has similar hair to another girl I taught. Both are BAME. I felt much guiltier for the mistake than I normally do because I knew it looked like I was saying "well you all look the same to me." They don't. I have done a lot of reading around unconscious bias and I know I am as susceptible as the next person. I apologised unreservedly, as I always do in these circumstances, but I still remember it now because it felt more damaging to the girl involved. I had a good relationship with both girls, and continued to do so afterwards, but I work hard at building relationships with all kids and am particularly careful to make BAME kids feel comfortable because I know they are in a huge minority in our school. This is why I felt so guilty about accidentally adding to their problems.

I had hair down to my waist but was constantly confused with her only other South Asian girl in my class. Her hair was a bob.

This was in the early '80s and I don't think the teacher made any effort to see past our colour.

I work in a school now and always make an effort if there are students who I muddle up.

No doubt there will be someone along to deny my experience.

The op was perfectly clear

It’s really not that difficult to understand

It’s NOT about getting childrens (or adults) names confused

It’s about ONLY getting the BAME children’s names confused (or adults) calling them by the only other or another BAME pupils name

It’s really not that hard to grasp - if you are willing to

Msfoxy17- the question was intended to invite discussion. I probably didn't even know "what I was getting at"

It’s obviously easier for people to remember names they are familiar with. I struggle to remember names that aren’t Typically historically British.

I guess if I lived in a country which wasn’t used to western names I would probably experience the same thing.

A teacher recently said in an assemby he wasn't going to even try pronouncing the name of someone inspiring he quoted in his PowerPoint.

It was a South Asian name which is phonetic.

I mix up my own kids. I mix up the children at school. I am just not very good at names.

@PotteryLottery there’s a real arrogance about non-English names. It’s like a token effort is good enough.

I think it's about brits and foreign names. I'm white with a foreign name (well I am foreign) and when I lived in England there was absolutely NO effort to pronounce or spell my name correctly. Not even an attempt at getting close to the sound or spelling by anyone in any capacity. I haven't experienced this in other countries. I find it very thoughtless and quite offending tbh.

There's arrogance and also fear of getting a name wrong and appearing ignorant or racist. I always ask if I'm not sure of any name but it's harder when it's not possible.

so explain why the confusion largely and repeatedly affects only one group of students?

My dd is one of only 2 pupils of their ethnicity in her chemistry class. she has had 5 terms of their teacher not having a clue which one of them is which.

They are white. I presume that isn't the one group of students you have been talking about ?

However, dd doesn't accuse the teacher of racism, she understands there is no malice, and that there is research that so many other posters have pointed you in the direction of, that shows there is commonly a difficulty in recognising faces that are from a different ethnic group from yourself.

You want honesty? The thing I worry about is saying names properly. I teach over 200 students. And I dread coming to certain names on the register - because I know I am going to say it wrong again, because I haven't remembered how to pronounce it, and we are now several lessons in. So sometimes I write my own phonetics in my mark book such as zi-eem so I remember.

I struggle with names anyway, and often use photos for all my classes well into the first term or so.

@MrsPeacockInTheLibrary I’m totally flummoxed that a teacher would dread coming across certain names on a register rather than just asking the student how they pronounce their name.

I'm mixed race and have experienced this a LOT. I enjoy the awkwardness when people realise what they've done.

I'm a teacher and last year I used to repeatedly middle the names of two boys in one of my classes. One was BAME and the other had ginger hair and freckles. It used to irritate them too but I couldn't help it. I'm usually really good at names (it usually takes me a day to learn a class of 30). But both of these boys had names beginning with an A. That's all it was.

A new crop of people who are not taking time to understand the issue. Sigh.

Haven't RTFT, OP , but just want to say how shocked I am at the way the vote is turning out here; WTAF?!
I am a primary teacher in an inner-city, very culturally diverse primary. You just learn the names, FGS.
I have also come across teachers anglicising names, or doing the 'Little Johnny' thing, substituting Johnny for something like Abdul, to illustrate a point particular to Muslim pupils, really racist.
for your daughters, and apologies on behalf of the profession; your children absolutely should not have to put up with or witness shit like this.

The other day, I called my son by the cat's name. This really isn't a big deal and they were both fine and we laughed about it.

This is absolutely not the same as "Good morning Roger" "I'm not Roger, I'm Sam, Roger is the name of the other black guy who works here", which I would be mortified at happening.

I'm also really shocked at the PP who claims to have told her coworker that when she worked in parts of Africa, she fond all black men look the same.

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me as to how pervasive racial ignorance and racism still is in the UK. It's depressing really. I really feel for people of different ethnicities and that this is starting from when the are children is really sad to hear. I hope people will try harder to be respectful.

"I am white, slim and blonde. At school I was constantly confused with the other white, slim, blonde girls in my class, we didn’t look alike other than build and colouring. It’s not a race thing."

and @VivienScott wins the prize for being most oblivious