Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What exactly are CAMHs supposed to treat?

394 replies

WhiteC0sm05 · 26/06/2020 17:15

Seems to be very little in our area.

OP posts:
WhiteC0sm05 · 27/06/2020 09:07

So are the NHS plans for yet more poorly qualified staff to keep children from the highly qualified staff they need to see?

So Wonky why aren’t you letting gov know the crappy service children are getting? Not wanting parents to voice the crappy uncaring service they ARE getting just makes it continue.

The system doesn’t just need more money it needs a massive overhaul with more highly qualified staff.

I am sick of websites, apps and hearing about therapies dressed up as treatment which in actual fact are low qualified staff who have done a course.Not that you ever get access to it anyway.

More access to highly qualified staff such as clinical psychologists and staff who show they actually care is what is needed. It’s all back to front. Proper diagnosis first then those that need the lower qualified staff sent that way, those that need the high intensity the other way. Poorly qualified staff are put in a position of playing god and it’s wrong.

OP posts:
Hazelnutlatteplease · 27/06/2020 09:18

They are happy to see children with ASD if a consultant completely fails to recognise a physical problem and decides its maunchausens by proxy.....

Thankfully we eventually managed to proof otherwise by physical tests (that the consultant had refused to do)...

I'm not sure using CAMHS having the resources to cover up consultant stuff ups supports the idea of a completely overwhelmed NHS resource.

It just needs using better

wonkytonkwoman · 27/06/2020 09:20

The point is that the system IS undergoing a massive overhaul. You can see it here: <a class="break-all" href="//canwww.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/local-transformation-plans-cyp-mh-guidance.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">canwww.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/local-transformation-plans-cyp-mh-guidance.pdf

And I'm not here to justify anything, actually; we work to the budget doing the best we can (in my service, anyway). All our clinical staff are highly trained and continue to access the courses that are made available. Many, many, are paying for their own higher level training and use annual leave to attend their courses.

WhiteC0sm05 · 27/06/2020 09:24

That link can’t be found.

How qualified are they? Are the ones deciding who does or doesn’t get treatment and diagnosing conditions at CP level?

OP posts:
Punxsutawney · 27/06/2020 09:28

wonky do you know which professionals are in the screening team that make the initial decision on whether a child meets the criteria?

DobbinTheFool · 27/06/2020 09:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoyFreeCake · 27/06/2020 09:40

At least 50% of people working in mental health services are either incompetent, lazy, malicious or a combination of the above. In child services it's closer to 80%. The poster above whose son went into an adult ward at 16 should thank their lucky stars, because the majority of tales of abusive inpatient treatment I've heard have been of adolescent wards. I was on adult wards at 16 and 17 and was mostly fine; the adolescent ward, meanwhile, left me traumatised — both physically and mentally damaged.

And yes, services, whether child or adult, use ASD (and personality disorder) to get rid of people. I have phone recordings of a service manager, taken with her knowledge and permission, saying "we don't treat people with ASD", repeating what the psychiatrist had said word for word. Even those services that will occasionally treat people who also happen to have ASD will pull out all the stops to claim that the depression, anxiety, OCD etc. is just part of the ASD so you just need to accept it.

WhiteC0sm05 · 27/06/2020 09:42

My ds lies in a corner 24/7 with the curtains closed too ill to access the websites his “professional” thinks he needs to self cure himself.

His “professional” doesn’t seem to be aware that severe depression often involves self loathing and one of the websites she directed us to states that.

His “ professional” thinks there is nothing they can do because he’s too ill to use websites and has expressed self loathing. She told us she wants to discharge him and his treatment should be to visit that same website instead of suggesting he go up a tier.

I’d love a job you get to get rid of cases not responding to treatment that involves simply spouting website links.

OP posts:
wonkytonkwoman · 27/06/2020 09:44

In a 'typical' CAMHS MDT you could find; Mental health nursing, Social Workers, Occupational therapists, Child and Adolescent Psychotherapists, Family Psychotherapists, Learning Disability nursing, Clinical Psychologists, Consultant Child and Adolescent Psychiatrists, Paediatric Nurses, Cognitive Behavioural Therapists, Art Psychotherapists, (and sometimes) Drama Therapists (there may be other disciplines as well, that I haven't thought of). There will be regional variation, obviously.

Each of these also are quite commonly dual trained, in their original training to degree or Masters Level, and then have further Masters level, or Doctorate training in a specialty. Many disciplines especially Nursing, Social Work, Clinical Psychology, Family Psychotherapy CBT and Psychiatry for example provide supervised training placements to those on their first training. The trainings have to be within the NHS planned treatment offers so that treatment is evidence based.

I'm not going to respond further though. The information and answers to your questions is out there in the public domain, if you look for it.

WhiteC0sm05 · 27/06/2020 09:47

But the more highly qualified staff clearly aren’t involved in the screening process or the first tier.

You not responding speaks volumes.

OP posts:
JoyFreeCake · 27/06/2020 09:48

The information and answers to your questions is lies and self-serving justifications are out there in the public domain, if you look for it.

FTFY.

JoyFreeCake · 27/06/2020 09:51

Screening generally seems to be done by some gum-chewing mental health nurse who jots down some half-remembered, inaccurate, minimising and usually semi-literate shite (that you won't get to see unless you request the records), which will get the person discharged without treatment and left feeling like they're seen as unworthy of help.

JoyFreeCake · 27/06/2020 09:52

Or worse, a psychiatric social worker. What a shower of shite.

WhiteC0sm05 · 27/06/2020 09:54

That is exactly what we’re experiencing!

OP posts:
Outtheforest · 27/06/2020 09:55

Sadly CAHMs has been this way for a long time, I was referred to them 10 years ago as a teenager for depression and anxiety. I waited 6 months for an appointment. By the time that came around I was self harming multiple times a day, extremely underweight and suicidal. I had three appointments before they decided I was to much of a suicide risk to be seen by a talking therapist. The solution was to put me on another 3 month waiting list for a psychiatrist appointment. In the end my parents paid for private weekly CBT with a lovely therapist who worked with me for 2 years. I credit her for the fact i'm alive today. My heart breaks thinking about the children whos parents do not have the luxury to afford private care.

Punxsutawney · 27/06/2020 09:56

it just feels very impersonal. Ds's rejection letter was just signed 'the screening team'. Who are they?

I have visions of someone sat in the office with a tick box and then just sticking the referral on a rejection pile when they don't score enough points.

Behind every bit of paper is a child really needing support.

HPLikecraft · 27/06/2020 10:03

Gosh. I came on to agree because I felt DD had not had the care from them she needed. It turns out she’s had better care from CAMHS than most on this thread. We’ve lost a lot of time and a lot of our DDs education waiting for them to do things; suffered lots of violence and a trashed house but things are now improving. I did try to go private, but the nearest private psychiatrist was more than 2 hours away and so booked up that even the waiting list was full and not accepting new people.

I’m so sorry for anyone whose child and family are not receiving the care they need. Flowers

10brokengreenbottles · 27/06/2020 10:05

Dobbin we've had "won't engage" too, mostly from the LA but from some HCPs too. I always correct to "can't".

White Guidelines inform clinical practice but don't necessarily dictate what HCPs do because individual circumstances need to be considered. When they depart from the guidance they should be able to justify why. Some people have managed to legally challenge CCGs not following them. If your CCG aren't following them you should ask, in writing, why. Make sure you follow up all conversations in writing, that way you have a paper trail.

I do think there is a place for "therapies dressed up as treatment" within an MDT. DS1 can't engage with EMDR or trauma based CBT, but we have made progress with Lego therapy (Lego is his passion), play therapy and art therapy. Whereas for him music therapy isn't appropriate - he hates noise.

Willowmartha1 · 27/06/2020 10:07

I'm under cahms at the moment with my dd who I suspect has ASD. I had to go through a massive questionnaire with the consultant which took ages asking all about development etc. I was then handed a letter with three websites I should try my heart sank !!!

AnneElliott · 27/06/2020 10:10

Of course there are shit and nasty immigration people endless. I think they need to be rooted out and certainly I did that myself when I was there.

My point though was that lots of us public sector deal with awful things at work and we do not use that as an excuse to mistreat or be unprofessional in the next person we see. So why does CAHMS get a free pass?

My many years in public sector also tells me that most of the time funding is not the only reason they are shit. Sometimes it's part of the reason, but never have I seen it where more funding would magically sort a failing service. It's very often incompetent management and a lack of (small p ) political will do get things done.

I get so frustrated on here when posters blithely respond to public sector incompetence with "well they're underfunded/ Govt cuts". It's lazy thinking and quite honestly gives licence to these areas to continue to be shit. Campaign for additional funding by all means, but do not excuse unprofessional behaviour because of a lack of it.

Phillipa12 · 27/06/2020 10:33

CAHMS were not very helpful with my son, after I raised concerns with the school senco and nurse who all agreed he needed help we went through the dr who also raised concerns for my ds's mental health and referred us instantly. CAHMS saw us fairly quickly but because my son is articulate he was signed off with 'try these websites'. I tried everything, specialist child bereavement charities had closed there waiting lists as they were too long, the drs could only help if he were over 16, he was 9, I even phoned the local children's hospice to ask for there help but because his sister had just died and not from a prolonged illness they refused to even give me details of specialist counsellors. It was the school who eventually found a private counsellor, and that was a recommendation from a member of staff, luckily I and my exh are in the fortunate position that we were able to pay for treatment but there must be 1000s of young people unable to access help and not have the funds to pursue private.

1DoesNotSimplyWalkIntoMordor · 27/06/2020 10:40

Our problems with Camhs started in 2005 (so under Labour Government) and range from failure to assess, losing/destroying notes and referral letters, failure to refer through tiers, being told that there was nothing wrong with ds except boredom.

After the initial refusal to assess our GP referred ds to the community Paediatric team, who then also referred ds to Camhs and it still took another referral from the GP to get seen by tier 1, this is where the lost/ destroyed notes come in as well as the boredom comments.

It was an extremely stressful time, which ultimately led to multiple diagnostic criteria being met. An investigation into the missing referral letters, handwritten notes, computer generated notes and computerised notes failed to turn up anything so the presumption was that all the referral letters and handwritten notes had been destroyed and computerised notes were never generated.

Worstyear2020 · 27/06/2020 10:52

So are the NHS plans for yet more poorly qualified staff to keep children from the highly qualified staff they need to see?

^ THIS

My poor son was suffering so badly for good 3 months at least, he could hardly function before the "magic pills" given by our private psychiatrist, our GPs tried to refer my son to a psychiatrist for his psychosis symptoms but they can only go via CAMHS. Then this poorly qualified staff decided that he doesn't need one and left son untreated.

We are now paying private, he was put on medication immediately.

CAMHS are waste of tax payer's money and their existence has ruined so many young people's lives. Absolutely disgusting.

OhTheRoses · 27/06/2020 11:37

It's actually very hard to know where to start.

Essentially whilst there is a funding problem there are also significant operational and professional practice issues that are not addressed due to an excuse based culture. It is difficult to address one without the other.

Our local CAMHS to whom dd was referred in 2015 when she was cutting and od'ing provided little professional support. She was seen after only about 10/12 weeks because I pushed. She was seen by a PMHW who didn't explain her role and the office staff didn't know what it ment either. Regrettably as referred to by a previous poster she also chewed gum. She told me dd needed CBT for anxiety and low mood manifesting in self harm. I asked how long it would take and was advised it would be a long wait. I asked if a private practitioner could be recommended and was told "no we don't do that because we don't know their outcomes but I know a really good guy who would be perfect but I can't tell you who he is, so you need to find someone off the internet".

Paradoxically dd wsboffered group therapy in the school day within about six weeks. The practitioners report specifically noted that dd's issues were rooted in her concerns about underperformance at school and it was hoped she wpuld be happier at a new school. The group therapy, 10.30-12 on a school day clashing with the first term of A'Level French would have ratcheted dd's issues into space.

I phoned and explained and was told CBT was group therapy and I hadn't been misadvised. The CAMHS manager advised I should get the school to change their timetable and that as I had inquired about private I shouldn't be with CAMHS. I was told on the private basis dd would be offered nothing else. A copy letter was received shortly thereafter addressed to my GP stating the family had refused interventions and therefore CAMHS had no option but to close the case.

Meanwhile as both GP and CAMHS had refused to help refer because it was unsafe and advised me to find specialist counselling support off the internet I was desperate. I shall also ad thT dd wanted help and to engage with it.

I contacted PALS. Three month investigation but they couldn't investigate with dd's consent - this is a real issue with 16-18 year olds who are already Ill and don't need additional stress. A call to the lead commissioner and my MP did extrapolate into an offer of 1:1 therapy and a double speak apology. However by the time I had secured a private therapist having read the riot act to the GP and sourced a consultant adolescent psychiatrist through BUPA. But learning to navigate the system tool four months which was time wasted for dd and I feel strongly there should be more support and signposting for parents who can afford to pay from the very beginning. Particularly as many of the people used by CAMHS either through the NHS or trough the linked charities also have private practices.

At this point DD had monthly sessions with the psychiatrist, weekly counselling, had a full physical health screening and after a few months was prescribed Fluoxetine and earlier a v high dose of vit D. She actually needed the Fluoxetine to get to a place to benefit from the counselling.

6 months in and generally improving exams brought on a wobble. The psych had assessed for ASD and ADHD A few weeks before this at Dd's request. But two weeks before exams dd took a tiny amount of paracetamol and 11 anti-histamine tablets. 48 hours later having told nobody and having been as bright as a button at supper the previous evening. She took herself off to our local A&E. The hospital did not phone me for four hours and when I arrived the consultant told me he wasn't at all worried about her but as protocol she would be admitted overnight with a 1:1 MH nurse, we had been reported to SS and this was necessary to facilitate a CAMHS review and I had given my permission on the phone. I had not. She was assessed that evening in A&E by the MH Liaison service because at 17 this as available. She was assessed by CAMHS the following Tuesday - After I chased and we were advised she would be referred for counselling and it woukd be delivered over the summer. She was assessed a few weeks later and advised she wpuld be put on an 8-10 week waiting list. CAMHS denied saying she would get counselling quickly - their letter/report was in fact a litany of errors.

During this dd got the assessment results from the private psychiatrist. She had traits of ASD but not enough for a diagnosis. She was however diagnosed with ADHD and a litany ofbjigsw pieces fell together. I called the CAMHS practitioner as advised by the GP. I can still hear her "well now mum, she's a bit too old to be having that at 17". I had actually to ask if she was undermining a private diagnosis. She then engaged in a conversation about methylphenidate.

So in summary if this was just about underfunding resources would be better used:
More flexible working beyond 9-5
More expert clinicians and less incompetence - if the clinician is incompetent how can they effectively discuss cases to their superiors at multi-disciplinary teams?
DD had 5 MH assessments and the NHS was prepared to spend £1000 on an overnight stay. Why not one efficient assessment and some therapy delivered efficiently?

I did complain and hve regular correspondence with the commissioners five years on. I will make a difference to this nd a layer of innate dishonesty and incompetence. My MP nudged them twice, each nudge resulted in support being offered.

But the listing impressions. At DD's first apt at 9.15 when we arrived the building was locked - staff rolled in late for this 9-5 service where the first apt is not at 9 but 9.30, the notices about a fatal orange allergy so do not even drink juice on the day of the apt., the gum chewing, the lost phone numbers, the reductive nature of addressing me as "mum" or "you mum". All little things that create an air of professionalism or lack thereof but which cost nothing.

So it's difficult. Does something so poor deserve more money or is it poor because it has no money. I am convinced that no amount of money will resolve the root and branch issues within CAMHS. Sadly I do not think I encountered one member of CAMHS staff, except the psychiatrist who I met at a formal complaint meeting who actually cared.

DD is fine. The ADHD diagnosis was key evidently depression and anxiety are common co-morbidities. How would CAMHS have diagnosed it if their practitioner don't think older teenagers can have it and when cases are closed once the first session of a 6 week course of counselling has been diagnosed? How does anyone know the outcome in those circumstances.

CAMHS was the most disorganised, incompetent and dishonest service I have ever dealt with. My greatest concern is for the young people who cannot access support privately. DD's came to about £6.5k - BUPA picked up about half.

gypsywater · 27/06/2020 11:40

I dont understand the bit about the fatal orange allergy? Your daughter has that?