To think 'cancel culture' is going way too far?

[Okeefe]

I've gone on twitter this morning to see #CancelKimmel trending, the reason.. he sang the N word when rapping a Snoop Dogg song in 1996.

Jenna Marbles being 'cancelled' due to doing blackface in a Nicki Minaj impression is 2011.

I swear every time I go on the internet, someone else is being 'cancelled'

People are digging up ancient tweets belonging to celebrities and normal people alike, searching for racist/problematic key words and contacting their employers, losing them their jobs and more often that not this content that they are 'cancelling' them for is historic

Are people not allowed to grow up? I'm pretty sure when I was in my early teens if I was singing along to a rap song, I would say the word like any other lyric. Would I now? No. Because I understand that it is offensive. Because I'm an adult now. Because times have changed.

I've had to quit twitter, it depresses me so much. You can't disagree with a word this woke generation say, or you too will be 'cancelled'.

@CathyComesHome

What is the difference between cancel and criticism?

My opinion is that trying to censor and silence women and black people for refusing to tolerate racism and sexual abuse is Orwellian.

And bullying someone to the point of suicide for a transgressive or perceived transgressive comment is Orwellian.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Ames

@Cornetto

I personally I wouldn’t give a shit what you called me but then I’m coming from a the position of a white person that doesn’t have the background of suffering and inequality because of my skin colour. It’s not really the same is it? I might get the hump as you’d obviously be initiating a slanging match but it’s not the name itself.

It’s interesting that you see me bringing up a slur that white people use against eachother as an attempt from me to initiate a slanging match.

Which means you’re lying, you wouldn’t like to be called that slur. And I would never use it against anyone. But I hope you now understood how much it hurts to be called the P word by white people. Welcome to my world, @Cornettoninja

@cadent

So what is your view on the meta analysis?
Do you think the IAT is a reliable and valid measure of bias?

You don’t seem to want to debate that, which has a lot of irony

Ninkanink I actually agree it's a very vague term.

How do you define it?

Let me explain how I see it. I think 'cancelled' is basically slang for 'criticised', but a way of indicating how thoroughly you are rejecting someone.

'Cancel culture' I find a problematic term. I think people use it as a way of likening critics to a mob, in order to delegitimise them. But I don't think this is fair. Yes, there are some instances where there is a bit of a pile-on. But I don't think this defines the current moment.

Like Cathy what I see are a range of historically powerless social groups using whatever means available to criticise and bring to account people who have done racist, sexist and abusive things.

But I'm getting the sense we are not all talking about the same kinds of things.

Except that usually oppressed groups are the ones doing the “cancelling” and the “victims” of cancel culture are usually powerful white male celebrities.

Are they? Because that’s not what I’ve witnessed. Powerful men are largely un-cancelleable, unless they are convicted of a crime.

@dreamingbohemian, I belong to an Eastern European culture myself and I don’t think other cultures are exempt but I also don’t hear those words in popular culture (maybe I’m not exposed to the right stuff?).

My point is simple, either a word is offensive or it’s not. Trying to control language in that way just doesn’t work (assuming someone wants it to work and isn’t just making a point).

"So you've been publicly shamed" by Jon Ronson talks about this. I'm not keen on some of the stuff he comes out with but I still bought this book because the subject matter interested me and I didn't feel the need to "cancel" him. If you think it's only serious sexual predators and Very Serious Cases who are being "cancelled" you really need to read this book and it was published five years ago so not even as bad then as it is now.

Of course no one thinks we should be seeing Jimmy Saville gurning away one TOTP but as ever there's balance, and cancel culture is not balanced. The mob has power and they're thoroughly over excited by it.

@hamster I can’t debate it because I haven’t read the long links you supplied. But I’m not calling the papers rubbish because I haven’t read them.

Throwing ‘meta analysis’ at me doesn’t help. Debunk the whole test properly if you want to debate.

By permanently cancelled, I mean that someone is never able to have any kind of career again. This is really only happening to a few people, like Harvey Weinstein or Matt Lauer.

Thank you for your reply dreamingbohemian. I was going to ask if permanent cancellation only applied to cases where someone had been found guilty of a crime, but having googled who Matt Lauer is, I see that he hasn't been charged.

So is the common demoninator wealth? Matt Lauer doesn't need to have a career as he has enough money to support himself, but if a man with a low income behaved as Lauer did, would they not be able to work anymore?

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as over exacting, but I have asd and I'm trying to get a handle on this.

Jimmy Saville was dead before anything happened to his appearances on tv, how is that relevant?

It’s certainly interesting psychologically isn’t it? We know that a group of people working together can do wonderful and terrible things.

For me the cancel culture is often punishing those who are wealthier. A way of putting them back down where they belong with the ordinary folk. It’s also a great way to throw in an old grudge when they’re getting a public kicking. Very satisfying I’m sure.

Jimmy Saville was dead before anything happened to his appearances on tv, how is that relevant?

Sigh. The old TOTP episodes played out after his death. So totally relevant.

posters insisting that rape survivors shouldn’t be allowed to speak about their experiences because they should rely on a criminal justice system that is clearly not fit for purpose

I think you have a separate point here - morally, what are limits of behaviour if you have been failed by the criminal justice system?

However, 'cancel culture' can be used by anyone, regardless of how much power they have.

Surely we can’t claim Harvey Weinstein, convicted and jailed for rape in a court of law as ‘cancelled’?

The only reason Weinstein was charged in the first place was because he was “cancelled” on Twitter first. Literally, the entire criminal investigation was the result of grassroots action in the media and online. Weinstein (who btw my closest friend in the world worked for for 3 years and was abused by) got away with being a serial predator for many years, totally openly, everyone knew he was doing it and he was so powerful he was able to do whatever he liked with no consequences. For decades.

The only thing that brought Weinstein down, the only thing powerful enough to make the authorities take notice, was mass outcry on social media and ordinary people/victims coming together. By the “baying mob”, basically. If not for that “baying mob” Weinstein would still be raping today.

And actually that’s still an oversimplification, because the real reason Weinstein was brought down was because his films were no longer profitable, and because he was personally disliked by other powerful white men, and because other individuals in power had a personal agenda and reason for wanting to get rid of him. Weinstein’s fatal mistake was in being abusive to everyone.

There are individuals still working in Hollywood who are far worse sexual predators than Weinstein but they are protected because they are careful only to abuse the powerless and suck up to the powerful. That’s why they are protected and Weinstein wasn’t.

Which means you’re lying, you wouldn’t like to be called that slur

@MinervaSaidThar well done?

No I wouldn’t like been called any name in a confrontational way clearly indicating aggression.

Call me white trash as a friend because you’ve found out about my penchant for pickled onion crisp sandwiches I would raise an eye brow and wouldn’t use it myself because I see no need to bring race or culture into it but it certainly doesn’t have the same impact or significance as the n word or the p word.

Cornetto so other ethnic groups can internally use slurs because their cultures haven't become as popular as African-American culture?

If Polish hip-hop becomes really popular, will us Polish people have to stop using this slur amongst ourselves in order to not confuse non-Polish people about whether they can use it or not?

I think 'cancelled' is basically slang for 'criticised', but a way of indicating how thoroughly you are rejecting someone.

It isn't though. To cancel somebody is not just to criticise somebody but to place them beyond the pale, and make association with them damaging.

@YgritteSnow

"So you've been publicly shamed" by Jon Ronson talks about this. I'm not keen on some of the stuff he comes out with but I still bought this book because the subject matter interested me and I didn't feel the need to "cancel" him. If you think it's only serious sexual predators and Very Serious Cases who are being "cancelled" you really need to read this book and it was published five years ago so not even as bad then as it is now.

Of course no one thinks we should be seeing Jimmy Saville gurning away one TOTP but as ever there's balance, and cancel culture is not balanced. The mob has power and they're thoroughly over excited by it.

I posted his Ted talk up thread.

I think some of Ronson’s more frustrating opinions are actually subconsciously driven by his own fears of the mob - so what makes his commentary about those who have had their lives ruined by cancel culture insightful and sensitive is also what makes him say stuff that is anti (second wave) feminist;

The one marginalised group it’s seemingly still ok to hate on are women who insist on setting their own boundaries.

Cancel culture isn't about criticising, it is about silencing.

Absolutely this. Criticising what someone says, making it publicly known, allowing other individuals to decide whether to watch them in a film, or buy their book, fine. Actively working to ban films / books etc because of the “incorrect” opinions of the actor / author is not fine, and not criticism.

Personally, I think the criminal justice system is really shit in a lot of ways. That doesn’t make it okay to hound someone from their job when they’ve never been charged with, let alone convicted of, a crime. And there is an increasing trend of some (particularly on Twitter) to try to do this for things which aren’t even crimes in the first place.

Of course she did @listsandbudgets

Do " trans activists" often trawl charity shopping Facebook groups for people mentioning Harry potter?

The stupidity of certain sections of society appears to have reached dangerous levels under lockdown. I agree it’s time to cancel twitter and fucking hashtags! No one should be allowed to leave school until they have displayed an ability for critical analysis and reasoned thoughts processes.

The only reason Weinstein was charged in the first place was because he was “cancelled” on Twitter first. Literally, the entire criminal investigation was the result of grassroots action in the media and online

He went to prison because there was enough evidence against him for a conviction, not because of what random people said on twitter.

There are many things wrong with legal system.

(www.<a class="break-all" href="https://amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-Broken/dp/1509841105)?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-am-i-being-unreasonable-3950011-to-think-cancel-culture-is-going-way-too-far" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">amazon.co.uk/Secret-Barrister-Stories-Law-Broken/dp/1509841105)

But without proper due process, the people harmed are the poor and vulnerable, not the Harvey Weinstein's of the world.

And bullying someone to the point of suicide for a transgressive or perceived transgressive comment is Orwellian.

Please stop trying to conflate anti-racism and anti-sexual assault with GC feminism.

How many black people have been murdered for being black? How many rape victims have taken their own lives?

Has anyone actually said that women shouldn’t speak about rape? Don’t be ridiculous. Stop making things up.

Please stop lying and gaslighting. Someone on this thread decried the use of Twitter to “cancel”/expose rapists by saying they should use the criminal justice system instead when we all know the criminal justice system is not fit for purpose.

If a man with a low income behaved as Lauer did, would they not be able to work anymore?
I very much doubt that a man without Lauer’s money and influence would be able to behave like he did. That’s the entire point. Of course there are plenty of low-income/unemployed men who rape. But Lauer wasn’t lurking in a bush outside a bar. He had an entire system set up to facilitate sexual abuse, and that system was created and financed by a major TV network. How power didn’t just protect him, it actively facilitated abuse.

We cannot separate power from abuse of that power.

I define it as multitudes of women being frightened to speak out and say, No, actually, men are not women, men cannot become women and no, I don’t want them in my protected spaces, nor usurping my protections in law, nor invading those spaces reserved for the very vulnerable women and children amongst us.

I have seen more than a handful of women say that here, admitting that they cannot say it openly and are frightened to post it on their own social media because if anyone sees it there is a good chance they will be fired. Many more won’t be here at all, or won’t be talking about it.

That is silencing on a grand scale. People are actually frightened to state biological fact. And a biological fact that really, really matters.

‘No debate’

‘No platform’

Screaming ‘-phobic/hateful’ and so on without any basis in reality.

That is cancel culture as I see it, in one very relevant and very current example.