To be delighted that Keir Starmer has already managed to get rid of the horror show that is Rebecca Long Bailey.

[lemonsandlimes123]

I wondered why he appointed her in the first place. Glad to see he has managed to ditch her pronto. Shame he can't do the same with Rayner.

Why can we criticise America but not Israel?

We do so so many people confuse antisemitism with anti Zionism ? There are Many Orthodox Jews who are committed anti Zionists! Are they anti Semitic?

I agree she should have gone obviously but we are entering dangerous territory if we are not allowed to critique any country’s actions

What is not legitimate is implying that Israel has a shadowy hand in any instance of wrongdoing or abuse that comes to mind regardless of whether or not there is any evidence that they are actually responsible for it

Interesting. It's usually Russia that gets the blame now and has a shadowy hand in any wrongdoing or abuse. At what point can Russians get upset and claim anti-Russian hate?

Exactly, @chomalungma

Russia, North Korea, China...all heavily and openly criticised. Yet Israel is untouchable? Why??

@jcyclops

She has not been sacked. She has had a few responsibilities removed. She continues to receive exactly the same pay as she was receiving last week. She has not had the whip withdrawn or been suspended from the party awaiting a disciplinary investigation. Starmer has acted very quickly, but has done almost nothing.

She’s lost 20% of her salary.

No one is saying the Israeli government is beyond criticism

The murder of George Floyd has nothing to do with Israel even if the police were trained by an Israeli task force the action of to restrain not to murder someone

Too many on the left of the Labour Party of are no better than right wingers who always find a way to blame immigration who always find a way to turn the conversation to immigration not because they have a concern for immigrants but because they are racist and fuelled by so much anger towards immigrants

When do they speak out about the atrocities of other governments (apart from the US government) rarely because they don’t fuel their anger in the same way as powerful Jewish people do

Let’s not forget Maxine Peake also supported Ken Livingstone apparently his comments to Vanessa Feltz were not fuelled by anti Semitism

Keir basically showing Boris how it’s done. Step out of line? Sacked. Break lockdown rules, get in bed with Dirty Desmond? Nothing to see here, move along.

When do they speak out about the atrocities of other governments (apart from the US government) rarely because they don’t fuel their anger in the same way as powerful Jewish people do

China and Tibet / the Rohinga Muslims
Syria
Saudi Arabia and Yemen
Our own Government and its actions in the past - Iraq war

Labour's NEC officially adopted the International Holocaust Remembrance Association (IHRA)'s "working definition of antisemitism" (linked below). IHRA provides supplementary guidance, including 11 specific examples, and notes that context is critical in identifying antisemitism and expressions of antisemitism may vary among different cultures, legal systems, languages, etc.

Labour (under Corbyn) adopted not just the definition but the entire guidance, including the examples. Like it or not, that's the standard to which Starmer has to hold his front bench, and RLB presumably knew that.

(Labour's stance on this is controversial - some members wanted them to adopt a different definition, or to keep the IHRA's definition and refer to the guidance without literally adopting it as the rule.)

IHRA's origins lie in groups of Holocaust survivors wanting to educate the public about the Holocaust and its causes and consequences. Their examples include "tropes" that have historically and recently been used to whip up antisemitic sentiment, which has had tragic results all over our continent, within living memory.

The Labour party also has a detailed policy on Islamophobia. If someone wants them to adopt a detailed policy on criticising China or Russia or North Korea or Catholics or trans people or Americans or anyone else, the first step would be to put together evidence about how prejudice against that group operates historically and currently and is damaging/dangerous, and lobby for the party to adopt it.

The problem with RLB seems to be that she and the party did get complaints from Jewish groups who did read what she shared as antisemitic and potentially damaging even if her intent was not antisemitic. Starmer asked her to delete it on that basis, she refused, he asked her to resign. He's not holding the general public - or even Maxine Peake or the Independent - to the same standards.

www.holocaustremembrance.com/sites/default/files/press_release_document_antisemitism.pdf

If there had been a clear link between the death of George Floyd and the State of Israel then criticise away.

As someone posted up thread the US police have been killing black suspects for years, long before the formation of Israel. Even if theoretically this technique had come from the ISS, did anyone from the state of Israel make the officer use it to kill George Floyd?

The reality is that the decision of that police officer was his own, based on his perceptions and prejudices. Wherever and however he got the idea to kneel on someone’s neck, the responsibility for doing so sits with him and the culture that surrounds him.

The quote:

"Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.” (A spokesperson for the Israeli police has denied this, stating that “there is no tactic or protocol that calls to put pressure on the neck or airway”.)"

I read that as Israeli secret services have an issue with the Palestinian people (the racism part) and use the knee hold on them (even though that has been denied)

That gets taught to US police, US police have racism in the system and then use such force on black people, with the same attitude that Israeli secret service have towards Palestinian people.

That is not saying that Israel caused the death,. I think it's more a reflection on attitudes of people with power towards minority groups.

I think that I struggled to see the anti Semitic theme as other posters have said as well. I understand now, having read the replies. However, if I was in a party accused of anti Semitism, I absobloody would make sure I understood it and would ensure I did nothing that could be construed as anti Semitic.

I agree they speak out against our own government

Rarely do I hear other governments being criticised such is the obsession with Israel I can safely say for every criticism there is against another government there will be 50 for Israel we know what that is fuelled by

Anti Semitism has long been a problem within the left of the party and now once again it’s highlighted

Amnesty International, other human rights organizations and even the U.S. Department of State, have cited Israeli police for carrying out extrajudicial executions and other unlawful killings, using ill treatment and torture (even against children), suppression of freedom of expression/association including through government surveillance, and excessive use of force against peaceful protesters.

Just facts.

Israel is a powerful country, a nuclear power, and a frequent and serious human rights abuser. Every human rights organization in the world can provide a list of its governmental crimes - pages and pages long.

The fact that it can no longer be criticized or questioned without “ANTISEMITISM!!!!!” being shouted from various quarters and people being silenced/sacked/comments retracted is seriously, seriously worrying.

I’m shocked that some can’t or won’t see this.

Rarely do I hear other governments being criticised

Really? Really?

Utter nonsense. You can scarcely breathe for the extensive criticism of China, Russia, and the US (among many others) in various big British newspapers. By contrast, I’ve heard little about Israel for months.
Your statement is complete and utter fabricated nonsense.

I am critical of Isreal at times over the treatment of the Palestinian people

But what has Israeli secret service training have to do with a murdering racist US policeman

Give you a clue - nothing

No need for the connection unless once again you need to make one

I’m taking about be left of the party ...

Depends what papers you read

@enthusiasm
“But what has Israeli secret service training have to do with a murdering racist US policeman
Give you a clue - nothing”
Maybe, maybe not. Evidence suggests it may in fact have a fair bit to do with it.
Regardless, when did we start firing people for criticizing a particular country.

I fully expect the next Tory who criticizes China to be fired for Sinophobia. Or the next one who criticizes Iran to be sacked for Islamaphobia - which we all know is rampant in the Tory party.

@Cam77
All those things may be true about the Israeli police but no member of the Israeli police was involved in George Floyd’s death. Therefore, I question the motives of people linking the two.

Blame Israel for its own wrongs but don’t link it to wrongs that have nothing to do with it.

@Cam77

What is your evidence that there was a link between George Floyd’s murder and Israel?

My DH criticised Saudi Arabia over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi does that make him Islamophobic (clue he is Muslim and has been to KSA)?
If someone tried to blame Israel for Khashoggi’s death then that would potentially be anti Semitic given there is absolutely no suggestion of a link.

@chaz
Google “US police train Israel”.

Referencing Israel in an article about over aggressive US policing is not necessarily something all would agree with ... but there’s absolutely nothing racist about it. These two countries - thousands of miles apart have trained together and swapped tactics and strategies. It’s totally factual.

Yanbu. He needs to move more centre-left, get rid of anti semitism and become more populist. Too many hard left atm.

That still doesn’t mean that Israel was in any way responsible for what this officer did. The US train their police in how to shoot people, that doesn’t move the responsibility not to go around shooting people in cold blood from the police officer to the US Government/State.