AIBU to wish people would not use playgrounds yet.

[mathdoc]

So I've just been walking in the local park with my DD (5) and she's been so upset she can't use the playrgound. Virtually every other child was being allowed on the swings and slides, despite clear signing saying it's not allowed and tape around the equipment. She was asking if she'd been naughty and therefore wasn't allowed on and I had to try to explain that nobody was meant to be on them. Am I being unreasonable to follow the rules? Have I got the rules wrong? AIBU to wish people didn't break them, especially while other children are around?

Thing is, neither party is wrong. It’s not wrong to want to obey the rules and to keep children away from playgrounds. On the other hand, it’s not wrong to reject seemingly arbitrary rules and make a parental decision which weighs up the conflicting factors.
The problem here is that the child in question is stuck between the different camps (her mum says we mustn’t break social distancing rules but the other children are playing with permission from parents)
Might it be possible to take her on walks away from playgrounds? In the car if you have access?

"I know that COVID is very low risk to children, but I believe that the science is less certain about whether they transmit it,"

There is no 'science', there's differing opinions of scientists. The studies done showed that children wasn't transmitting or picking up Covid. Even in China when they were opening up houses to find the adults dead, the children were testing negative. Likewise I watch what's happening in migrant camps and across Africa (my father was from SA and I have friends across Africa), again the findings around child transmission is showing the same. In some countries the playgrounds have never closed and one of the first things allowed was primary school children being allowed to hug grandparents.

I could have got on a plane this week and gone to a country with open playgrounds. The flights to everywhere opens up next week.

The children played together at the peak in March, there's been no tracing back to them. Children aren't a priority. The research isn't being fully done because that's not the most pressing issue. So while there isn't 100% proof of them not transmitting the virus, globally there isn't proof that they are and there should be, if they are.

I don't believe that we should show children to follow rules, blindly. The removal of our civil liberties and our right to risk take, is something worth fighting for. My grandchildren are more in danger from the journey to the parks, than Covid.

@PenelopePitstop49

Have you sought help for your health anxiety OP?

And don't take your DC past packed playgrounds, because to be honest, it's a bit cruel if you're not going to let them play.

The OP wasn't to know the playground was packed. She probably assumed that as we aren't allowed to use them yet it would be empty.

I'm a little surprised that two people have suggested that I shouldn't be allowed to take my child to the only green spaces in my area if I'm not prepared to break the rules.

It's not to do with health anxiety - it's to do with trying to stick to the rules unless I've got a really good reason not to. I did a little back of the envelope calculation (see my username!). Suppose that the risk of transmission is 0.0001% per use of playground equipment (a number I've just pulled out of thin air). There are about 4 million 5 to 9 year olds in the country. Suppose that this leads to 8 million visits to the park each week (some going several times, some going not at all). Based on the current AIBU poll, two thirds of these visits allow use of equipment - say about five different pieces. Then that corresponds to 40 cases transmitted. If we assume that the R value is currently about 0.7 (and if people break this rule, maybe they are part of a population who break more rules and so have a higher than average R rate, but it might be smaller from child to adult so I'll go with an average value) then this will lead to about 130 cases. With a death rate of about 2% that's roughly 3 additional deaths due to ignoring this rule. Each individual breaking the rules has a tiny, tiny chance of contributing to these deaths, but if the population as a whole ignore the rules then bad things happen...

[quote mathdoc]@fallfallfall

The problem is that viruses do hang around on swing sets... I know that the probability is very small, but literally millions of people all doing something where there is a very small chance of transmission scales up pretty quickly to lots of transmission.

But more than that, it is just the general principle that many people seem to be happy to encourage small scale rule breaking. I think that's a slippery slope.

And even if you want to break rules in private, please have some consideration for others so that people who want to try to follow the rules for the sake of everyone don't get put into an untenable position![/quote]
I think it's important to learn that you don't just obey someone who doesn't have your interest at heart.

Children have extremely low risk of Covid and there has been no evidence that they spread it but they can't use playgrounds.

Old men - who are at much greater risk have been allowed to play golf for weeks.

Matt Hancock - who has been preaching at us for weeks - walks down, puts his hand on another MPs shoulder and stands within inches.

But we should just do as we are told. How the government have treated families and children specifically is nothing less that abusive and I wouldn't teach any child to put up with that.

I don't even have children and I am incensed on their behalf at the treatment of them even though the risk to them - our future (well yours mainly cos I'm old) has been nothing short of abusive.

Every time you get behind the wheel of a car you are taking a tiny risk that someone may be killed...

@mathdoc

I'm a little surprised that two people have suggested that I shouldn't be allowed to take my child to the only green spaces in my area if I'm not prepared to break the rules.

It's not to do with health anxiety - it's to do with trying to stick to the rules unless I've got a really good reason not to. I did a little back of the envelope calculation (see my username!). Suppose that the risk of transmission is 0.0001% per use of playground equipment (a number I've just pulled out of thin air). There are about 4 million 5 to 9 year olds in the country. Suppose that this leads to 8 million visits to the park each week (some going several times, some going not at all). Based on the current AIBU poll, two thirds of these visits allow use of equipment - say about five different pieces. Then that corresponds to 40 cases transmitted. If we assume that the R value is currently about 0.7 (and if people break this rule, maybe they are part of a population who break more rules and so have a higher than average R rate, but it might be smaller from child to adult so I'll go with an average value) then this will lead to about 130 cases. With a death rate of about 2% that's roughly 3 additional deaths due to ignoring this rule. Each individual breaking the rules has a tiny, tiny chance of contributing to these deaths, but if the population as a whole ignore the rules then bad things happen...

Greater odds of them being killed in a car crash - Do you let them ride in cars

I hear you OP. I took my DS (22 months) and dog on a big walk this morning before the heat of the day and we went past our park - thought I'd pop in and throw the ball for the dog for a while. DS runs straight over to the play park and wants in as there is a dad and some other kids in there. I am intrigued so go over for a look and see the gate is actually locked and there is still a big sign saying 'closed'. The Dad had obviously lifted his kids over the barrier and gone in too.

My DS is too young to understand all this and has a complete shit-fit when I put him back in the pram so we can leave the park and carry on walking the dog.

And this isn't about outdoor space and exercise - we have a big garden. But DS has been starved of social interaction for nearly 4 months now (about 1/6 of his life!) and wanted to play!! It's really hard when others are breaking the rules.

@formerbabe
"Every time you get behind the wheel of a car you are taking a tiny risk that someone may be killed..."
Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that no risk should be allowed. I'm suggesting that until I am incredibly expert I should follow the advice of experts to reduce that risk to levels generally acceptable to society. Which is why I stick to speed limits, even though they are sometimes arbitrary. It is why I get my car MOT'd even though several of the requirements seem pretty trivial.

Sometimes I wonder how many of the parents who are happy for the children to break rules that the parents think are silly take the same view when the child disobeys rules set by the parent that the child disagrees with. If I create a rule which my children think is stupid, I expect them to come to me and convince me to change it rather than disobey by default.

Playgrounds near me are not open but most of the tape etc trying to stop them being used has been ripped down. Plenty of kids playing on them.

Passed two men inside a cordoned off outside gym trying to figure out how to get the restraints off the equipment so they could use them.

But DS has been starved of social interaction for nearly 4 months now (about 1/6 of his life!) and wanted to play!! It's really hard when others are breaking the rules.

No it's really hard when the government doesn't seem to give a shit about kids.

And if everyone had carried on following the rules and not complaining then they probably wouldn't open on July 4th. They'd still be at the bottom of the pile

I'm doing everything possible to prevent full lockdown sgain. So dc will have to make playing outside of the play area for a bit.

We're not allowed on them in our area yet. TBH I wouldn't let ours go on them if you could, as COVID can be transferred from hard surfaces and you can imagine how many hands are on them every day...

"And if everyone had carried on following the rules and not complaining then they probably wouldn't open on July 4th. They'd still be at the bottom of the pile"

But "following the rules" and "not complaining" are two separate things. I'm perfectly happy to encourage people to complain to their council / mp and ask for evidence about the advantages of closing playgrounds. I'd even have some sympathy if people felt sufficiently strongly that they organised a protest / civil disobedience and made a point to use the playground as a way of getting attention for their cause. This is not what I've been seeing though. It's a laissez-faire, rules-don't-apply-to-me-if-I-don't-like-them attitude. I'm clearly getting old and grumpy!

The playgrounds are definitely getting busier in our area, we walked through the park on the way home from nursery yesterday and there must have been thirty children in the actual playground, parents happily lifting them over the barriers, red and white tape ripped off of everything.

DS(4) was confused, I explained that just because other people were using the equipment doesn't mean it's right.

It was actually harder a few weeks ago when adults were in the playground using it as gym equipment because they should know better. Honestly? I don't blame parents for letting their kids play, but I also don't want my child to be the reason another parent has to have a conversation with their child about why they can't play like they used to.

You are being a bit U. You are on the right side of the guidelines but at some point you have to teach your kids (and indeed yourself) that slavishly following “the rules” can in itself be dangerous and ask them to think for themselves. Using playgrounds now is probably less dangerous than on the 4th July when there will be a mile long queue for every swing with kids licking each other left right and centre, guidelines or no guidelines. In the grand scheme of things, does it matter?

I'm quite shocked at the lengths people have gone to in order to curtail their own kids freedoms over the last few months. If you are shielding or are highly vulnerable, I can understand, but people saying on here have been saying they have barely left the house for 4 months, not letting kids go back to school, not letting them play on playground equipment because the government says we can't until the magic date of 4th July. Use your common sense. As others have said, your child probably has more risk of damage to their health from travelling to/from the park/school etc than they do of being harmed by Covid.

My dd doesn't like the local park, but I wouldn't go because of the absolute shaming that the local fb group indulges in. I think I would have had a better reception if I said I had kicked a cat then when I said a couple of weeks back that the play parks should be open.

I still think it is ridiculous that they are shut - if mine were remotely bothered I would allow them into untapped off play areas but I wouldn't be knocking down fences etc.

Yes they are playing in the park, but sorry sweetheart, we are going home. We can't stop, we have things to do, and the advice from the government is to wait a bit longer. It won't be long now. I know other people aren't waiting, but they do it their way and we do it our way.

[quote mathdoc]@formerbabe
"Every time you get behind the wheel of a car you are taking a tiny risk that someone may be killed..."
Absolutely. I'm not suggesting that no risk should be allowed. I'm suggesting that until I am incredibly expert I should follow the advice of experts to reduce that risk to levels generally acceptable to society. Which is why I stick to speed limits, even though they are sometimes arbitrary. It is why I get my car MOT'd even though several of the requirements seem pretty trivial.

Sometimes I wonder how many of the parents who are happy for the children to break rules that the parents think are silly take the same view when the child disobeys rules set by the parent that the child disagrees with. If I create a rule which my children think is stupid, I expect them to come to me and convince me to change it rather than disobey by default.[/quote]
It's not disobeying by default. My DCs are pretty obliging. They know where the big red lines are. There are other lines with a hint of negotiation on. They know what "no" means and have a good respect of why I say "no" because there is a clear reason provided.

Playgrounds were explained in March, and ignored inApril and in to May, but by the time we've got into June, the situation has progressed and become significantly less risky, so that boundary has changed. We are at the stage where I'm more concerned about a 7 year old becoming depressed, and a 9yo with SNs losing physical and social skills than I am about a virus that they are the least risk demographic of catching and being symptomatic with.

We had a shit time during lockdown, for various reasons including a family bereavement. By the time NS announced playgrounds could be open DS was spending a lot of time just flopping on the sofa saying he couldn't concentrate on anything and was really sad. So we started going to the playpark occasionally, as I knew DS was definitely suffering mental ill health but was extremely unlikely to catch covid as there's been no new cases in our area for a couple of weeks, and otherwise I'd be taking him to a local forest to climb on the same tree trunks and wood carvings as lots of other kids.

If there's a slippery slope here's its that so many people are accepting of questionable arbitrary rules. Much, much more evidence of that being the start of a problem in various societies in history than kids going on swing parks.

I have to say, at no point did I think my daughter was going to have an issue with COVID herself. My only COVID related worry is about the possibility of her passing it on to someone else. The far greater long term danger to her would be to encourage her to break rules just because it's something she wants and she can't see the immediate danger.

I don't think that rules should be followed slavishly, however I don't think that common sense is particularly common. Psychologists have shown that people have a very distorted view of cost benefit analysis. Immediate gains massively outweigh long term risks. I don't want my daughter to follow rules for the sake of it - hence why I always encourage her to negotiate any rules that I set if I can't fully justify them. However, I don't want her to use a "want" to break a rule that she does not fully understand the implications of. This is the type of argument I've seen applied to people speeding, people taking drugs even in certain circumstances casual racism - these are all things that people convince themselves are not that harmful, that everyone else does, that the goverment somehow doesn't understand and it gives them a short term boost. I'm very happy to encourage her to campaign to change things she disagrees with, but in the meantime to not think she knows better than those society has agreed are in charge.

Equally, I want her to be aware that her choice have an impact on others.

Well where I live 99% have been sticking to the rules and not entering the playgrounds, only some teens who are not with adults go on. I think the risk is very low if good hygiene is practised, hand gel after using the equipment, but I'll wait til they're open next week.

Sorry, by the time NS gave a date for playgrounds to be open in future. We've still got until Monday, apparently in an attempt to give everyone an additional miserable weekend to get through.

I think it's pathetic that we can buy tat in Primark, but not let our kids play on swings. However, because I don't want my kids to think I don't follow rules, I haven't let them play at all. What other people do does not concern me, and the kids haven't really asked.