Inappropriate BIL behavior?

[confusedm1]

Long story here. I don’t have anyone else to get advice from about this so hoping MN can give me some. I’m ready to be told IABU. I’ve had some postnatal anxiety so I’m not sure if I’m being unnecessarily worried.

Parent in-laws live 10 hours away. BIL lives in a small flat very close to them, visits most days, he basically lives there half the time. He’s middle-age, has social anxiety, doesn’t work or see any friends or extended family, no girlfriend. From what I can gather he spends a lot of time on the internet and sees his parents and that’s about it. He’s had drug problems in the past and frequently has suicidal thoughts. Until below I thought he was a nice, quiet man who had a rough life. Now I don’t no what to think.

I’m a FTM to a 2 year old DD, who is also the family’s 1st GC. Me and DH visited in-laws before lockdown.
BILs actions towards DD made me uncomfortable straight away. He would constantly touch her face, I mean all the time and pat her head like a dog. He would lie on the floor so DD could climb him. Try to tickle her at the time. He was way more involved than any other family member. But I put it down to me being over protective.
He would also put food on her highchair but not stuff I would normally give her so I would say “please don’t give her that” and he would say “no she’s fine.” I also asked him not to touch her face all the time he said “yes I can.” He would stay overnight at the in-laws, sleep on the sofa. I think this was so he could be there when she got up in the morning. If she took a tumble he would jump in and grab her to console her, before me or DH had a chance to. It’s almost like he wants to be her parent.
It was odd but I put all this down to him never having much interaction with baby’s, this was his first time seeing her and my anxiety.

So then on the last night we were there, I was getting her bath ready at night. BIL has just had a shower, again he did this sometimes (no Idea why but everyone thought it was normal). My FIL took DD into there bedroom, where BIL was. I heard her crying so went in. My heart fell out of my body at this point. DD was crawling up BILs body who was only wearing a towel and not covering himself very well. FIL grabbed DD, said “I’ll take her downstairs” and pretty much ran out. I think he realised it looked doughy. I should have had words with him then about it but I didn’t and left the room.

I told DH everything and my feelings about BIL but we go round and round. Ending in “so basically your saying my brothers a peado” NO but I cant ignore my feelings. DH agrees this is unacceptable behavior from BIL but to just leave it now and have words if anything else happens next time we visit. It could all be a misunderstanding. I have this bad feeling about BIL, I can’t explain it. I never had it before DD. A feeling of deep dread in my gut.

We plan to move soon (delayed by CV) to be near in-laws, they want to look after her while I’m a work which would be great and save money. But I’ll be worried constantly about BIL being there. Watching her alone while MIL pops to shop or something. I sway between thinking IABU and it’s good he wants to be so involved. Or I need to protect her and be cautious. I would feel absolutely terrible if anything happened, it’s every parents worst nightmare.

So WWYD and AIBU?

[confusedm1]

@Suzie6789 I would cover up around any child that wasn't mine. But I don't think they think like that. Me and DH have since had talks about what's appropriate for adults in situations but he looks at things quite innocently

[faithfulbird]

I forgot the last paragraph. I'd rather put her in nursery and pay money then have her at inlaws! BIL seems creepy and you're right about what I'd MIL goes to the shop or something. Do you have to move to be near them?

[G3entlemanjack]

I would stop discussing this and say very clearly that your dd will NEVER be allowed to be in that house/with those people unless you are there with her. End of. And he can extrapolate from that what he will.

I think it's possible that you've downplayed the seriousness of this (unintentionally) because no one is siding with you and it's easy to overlook things if someone's telling you that you're wrong all the time.

Do NOT let this happen.

FWIW my dd was groomed and touched inappropriately at school when she was six. Nothing extreme thank God, but very definitely on the way there. And I'd had a bad feeling about the guy from the moment I saw him. My exact thoughts were "If there's a paedophile around here, it's you." That was September and the grooming took place in December at an after school club. ALWAYS trust your instincts.

[Mistystar99]

Trust your instincts. Better to offend them and protect her, than protect them and harm her for life.

[Socialdistancegintonic]

Also, going down the ‘is he abusive or not’ is just a way to defend defend. And make you back down.

You have no proof that he is abusive. You have plenty of red flags, and plenty of treating yourself daughter in a way that it is not good for her, not good for her boundaries and not good for her safeguarding.

Much harm is done by people insisting on definite proof. You are not going to the police. What you are doing is reacting highly appropriately to important warning signs and also to ILs telling you to shut up, and that they can cross boundaries with your daughter.

That is a big issue and don’t let anyone tell you it isn’t. Protect your DD and totally keep her away.

[LyingWitchInTheWardrobe]

I absolutely missed the bit about your FIL taking your daughter into their room where your BIL was. I misread that that your BIL had taken her in and FIL had rushed in to get her out.

Your FIL is as much of a problem as your BIL is. Sorry. :(

[NorthernIrishFeminist]

Trust your instincts- worst case is you offend your in laws. Worst case if you don't trust your instincts and you're right is awful. I wouldn't be moving closer.

I had nothing to go on but had uneasy feeling about someone who seemed lovely, everyone trusted them but just a little too friendly so kept my kids away, turned out they were a pedo

Go to the police, ask them to check him (& fil since you're asking anyway) under Sarah's law and explain why. They may think you're worrying unnecessarily and it doesn't matter if you are. But no convictions doesn't mean no need to worry person I was wary of didn't get a conviction until he was elderly for a historic case, who knows how many other children he'd abused.

[Whenwillthisbeover]

He sounds like he has minor LD to me. My older brother was massively invested in my DC when they were babies, tickled them and shook rattles, bounced them on his knee etc It all looked A bit odd or awkward, when the DC they got more independent he lost interest. He is socially awkward, has LD and suspected autism, i think he liked the interaction with babies because they responded to him Positively without judging and didnt make him feel shit about himself or uncomfortable or different.

I dont dispute you shouldn’t take chances, not at all, but are there any other considerations That could explain this different behaviour?

[confusedm1]

@Intelinside57

Protect your child. You don't have to speak through your DH, you have a right to speak up as a parent. So you'll have to make other childminding arrangements. Next time he's around and he does anything you are not happy with be assertive - put your hand out with a STOP signal and say "Stop! I have asked you not to do that". Then take your DD away. Do it every time. If he jumps up to help her and gets in your way you're going to have to tell him to get out of the way please, he's interfering. Some tough action to be taken here. I would probably have left the house as soon as that latest incident happened to be honest.

You make a good point I don't need to talk through him. At the time I was still "learning the ropes" but now I think I could deal with it a lot better and stand my ground. I'm her mum so what I say goes really.

[ShouldWeChangeTheBulb]

Trust yourself on this one. Sadly the biggest risk to your DD is from her own family.

[Thelittleweasel]

@confusedm1

Oh dear - all the wrong signals to me. Red flags. These days we are more aware of this "handling". It simply is not appropriate these days to "mess around" with children even if it's just presented as "play". As a teenager I recall being unhappy with "some man" playing "which leg is it up" with a boy and grabbing. Boy was laughing but still wrong.

[TJ17]

Whether your instinct is right or wrong it's always best to trust it in this instance!!!

I would definitely never leave her unattended there just incase.

As long as you don't call him a paedo with no evidence and upset everyone, no one would need to know you were worried but just don't ever leave her there without being there too.

To be honest, even if he isn't a paedo and you've gotten the complete wrong end of the stick, it's still inappropriate for him to ignore you when you ask him not to feed her certain stuff or touch her face etc!! Imagine what other safety issues he would ignore that you wouldn't be comfortable with.

[gamerchick]

should have said something then but DH talked me out of it. He says it will turn ILs against us. They will take BILs side

Would that be a bad thing? Sounds ideal to me.

[Pigeonfaces]

No no no no - please trust your instinct. Don’t leave your daughter with your in laws. Ever.
It is absolutely the case that most abuse is familial- that’s how it happens, because people can’t believe it. What a dreadful position for you.
If you have to, just tell your PILs outright: I wasn’t happy with the way BIL interacted with dd.

[confusedm1]

@LoveSummerNotIcecream

You should also report what happened with the towel to social services/ the police. It might prompt them to have a look at his computer. They are all being unreasonable even your DH. I would seriously reconsider moving if it was me. Even if you don’t use them for childcare how can you be sure she will be safe if your DH visits his brother or parents and brother is there? I’d put money on him having an unhealthy interest in children and your DH and PILs won’t do anything because they can’t bear the thought that this might be true.

I almost can bare the thought if it's true! But unfortunately I didn't have such a innocent childhood as DH seems to have had. Plus he's a man so couldn't understand what some men are like.
I think SS and police is too far, thanks for your advice though. I am thinking of asking police for any previous dealings (Sarah's law I think?) as I'm sure ILs wouldn't tell us about it.

[icansmellburningleaves]

@DeerHeart

Can you explain the towel incident a little
More? Like, was he covered or not? His father was there, what makes you think it’s sexual in any way?

It sounds to me like he just really loves his niece. Maybe he doesn’t think he will have the opportunity. I think to accuse him or being a paedophile is a big Jump when very little has happened.

You are spectacularly naive.

[Socialdistancegintonic]

@Whenwillthisbeover

He sounds like he has minor LD to me. My older brother was massively invested in my DC when they were babies, tickled them and shook rattles, bounced them on his knee etc It all looked A bit odd or awkward, when the DC they got more independent he lost interest. He is socially awkward, has LD and suspected autism, i think he liked the interaction with babies because they responded to him Positively without judging and didnt make him feel shit about himself or uncomfortable or different.

I dont dispute you shouldn’t take chances, not at all, but are there any other considerations That could explain this different behaviour?

It doesn’t matter. Whether LD or not. Also do not make the mistake of saying it’s ‘just LD’. Anyone can learn appropriate boundaries, and if they haven’t, it can make someone vulnerable. Someone I know was abused as a child by their cousin with LD - they let them share a bedroom - the parents ignored the warning signs and just put it down to LD and wouldn’t listen to the poor child was abused. Really tragic all round.

[SummerWhisper]

A number of big concerns:

• Your FIL took your daughter to semi-naked BIL but only acted responsibly when you entered the room. Was FIL watching it unfold? Was he enjoying it? Which bit made her cry?
• Your husband is minimising your concern, so he is not a suitable parent
• Your husband would rather be on good terms with his parents than make sure your daughter is safe. Why does he think PIL will turn against you? Is there a history here of someone accusing in the past and parents have closed rank?

I don't think you know his family well enough. I think you need to do some digging about FIL too. You also need to check what DH thinks is normal behaviour around a child. I think you are on completely different pages about safeguarding.

[BlueJava]

If my DP said "So you're saying my bro is a paedo?" I'd say "No, but potentially he is and I don't want out DC to be how we find out"

Do you really need to move back? I'd be rethinking the whole thing. After all it's going to be a constant source of worry everything they say "Can we have DC". I wouldn't trust them to look after my DC anyway, so it probably negates a lot of the reason for the move.

[confusedm1]

@sassysoul

Please pay for childcare, PP mentioning he's not a stranger but the majority of people abused are abused by people in a position of trust, someone close like a family member and I really think you should trust your gut. At first I thought maybe the BIL had sen and is just a bit taken with your DD but personally I just would not take the risk as he could be potentially left alone with her and your DHs family obviously would not want to admit to themselves he's maybe a paedophile

Yes to everything you said, my thoughts too. ILs and DH would ignore things but not on purpose, more a case of they just couldn't believe it would happen

[TJ17]

If you did move closer and didn't want to offend your in laws over childcare, you could say something along the lines of you want DD to go to nursery to socialise with other children and adapt to a school setting ready for when she goes to school

[Fairyliz]

Trust your instincts. Twice in my life I’ve overridden mine to ‘not make a fuss’. Both times it was serious.

[WhereYouLeftIt]

"He would also put food on her highchair but not stuff I would normally give her so I would say “please don’t give her that” and he would say “no she’s fine.” I also asked him not to touch her face all the time he said “yes I can.” "
My hackles started rising way before the bath incident. He overrode the parent's request ("please don't"), then overrode the parent's instruction ("don't touch"). Both these incidents indicate that he will do as he damned well pleases - actual parents will be ignored.

"My FIL took DD into there bedroom, where BIL was. I heard her crying so went in. My heart fell out of my body at this point. DD was crawling up BILs body who was only wearing a towel and not covering himself very well. FIL grabbed DD, said “I’ll take her downstairs” and pretty much ran out. "
So much wrong here! Am I right in thinking FIL had placed DD on the bed, where BIL was lying? I don't see how she could crawl up him without him lying down. Did BIL lift her onto himself, or had FIL handed her to him? FIL obviously realised this was wrong, else why would he have removed DD from the room?

It sounds as if your husband would prefer to ignore all this. Well - he can't. His brother may be a paedophile. At the very least he is poor at reading social situations and discerning between appropriate and inappropriate behaviour. He ignores boundaries, willingly telling parents to their face that yes he can go against their requests and do as he pleases with their baby.

Why are you moving to be closer to them? If it was for your husband's parents to have more contact with your daughter - don't. They will not ensure her safety, they will be as unwilling as your husband to accept the reality of their son's behaviour.

I think ten hours sounds like the sort of distance I'd like to have between them all, and my daughter.

[TracyBeakerSoYeah]

@LorenzoVonMatterhorn

Same as everyone else. Pay for childcare.

Your FIL’s reaction was rather telling, too

That's what set the alarm bells ringing - your FIL grabbing your DD immediately & taking her out of the room.
I think your FIL has some worries about his son too but is minimising them.

[wildcherries]

@SummerWhisper

A number of big concerns:

• Your FIL took your daughter to semi-naked BIL but only acted responsibly when you entered the room. Was FIL watching it unfold? Was he enjoying it? Which bit made her cry?
• Your husband is minimising your concern, so he is not a suitable parent
• Your husband would rather be on good terms with his parents than make sure your daughter is safe. Why does he think PIL will turn against you? Is there a history here of someone accusing in the past and parents have closed rank?

I don't think you know his family well enough. I think you need to do some digging about FIL too. You also need to check what DH thinks is normal behaviour around a child. I think you are on completely different pages about safeguarding.

All very good, if uncomfortable to read, points.