Why are Black Lives Matter activists and supporters calling for justice through the criminal justice system if they don’t believe in it?

[5wandh]

This political movement says they stand for the abolition of the police and prisons. Does it not then go against what they claim to believe in if they call for a different type of system for one set of people yet want to use the very thing they stand against for another set of people?

I personally don't agree with the abolition of the police, prisons and the CJS (although I think it does need an overhaul).

I think for the BLM movement the ultimate belief is in the abolition of the police, prisons and the CJS. However many know that this is unlikely to actually happen so at the very least want it to be just and fair (I.e same treatment, sentencing ect of all people regardless of race). At least that's what I've gathered from what I've read and seen.

I'm very sceptical about BLM as an organisation, although fully support BLM as a movement.

Sorry, could you please elaborate? Your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense

But this is what "defunding the police" actually means. Hope this helps.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/20/defund-the-police-social-control-investment-donald-trump-protests-race-george-floyd

I believe black lives matter. I do not agree with the aims of the organisation Black Lives Matter. I wish people would read beyond a headline. Lots are donating believing it to be about racism without reading about what they stand for

Defunding the police doesn’t mean abolishing it. They want it to focus on criminal justice - so, you know, getting justice through the system.

Their goal is NOT to abolish the police. Defund the police means (especially in America) so spend less on policing. It's a massive part of government budget and is not fulfilling its role/ to serve the people. Instead the budget should be more fairly distributed amongst services that help people and build better communities - social care, community outreach and social development programs, etc. No one wants to get read of the police and prison systems entirely. They just want to deflate an overgrown beast

@5wandh

This political movement says they stand for the abolition of the police and prisons. Does it not then go against what they claim to believe in if they call for a different type of system for one set of people yet want to use the very thing they stand against for another set of people?

No it does not. They’re calling for defunding the police. Which is catchy but does not mean abolish police, merely cut their budgets down so the police aren’t all policing in military grade vehicles with military grade weapons and drones.

In addition, the justice system is corrupt, but it still does the right thing from time to time. The protests are to counter the corruption and ensure that the justice system does what it is supposed to.

[quote amijustparanoidorjuststoned]Sorry, could you please elaborate? Your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense

But this is what "defunding the police" actually means. Hope this helps.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/20/defund-the-police-social-control-investment-donald-trump-protests-race-george-floyd[/quote]
One of the political aims of Black Lives Matter in their own words is ‘Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police’. Defunding the police isn’t about just reallocating the budget, nor to bring about reform, but rather to abolish it. They’ve got to start somewhere right?

Look on their social media pages as they are very vocal on this.

a) It's a decentralised movement, so nobody specific is in charge of policies (different people within it will have their own opinions).

b) Yes there is a contradiction if it's the same people wanting both. For example I am vegan and don't campaign for better animal welfare, because what I actually want is animal rights. But it's not uncommon for people to in theory want to abolish something, but in practice they don't really believe they're going to get it (or at least not any time soon), so they may settle for demanding improved conditions (e.g. no beating of slaves, rather than the abolition of slavery). But I think that just condones the whole system, regardless of the exact details, so I wouldn't support that approach.

Oh dear, are you lot still trying to get away with the Mensch fallacy?

@user1471565182

Oh dear, are you lot still trying to get away with the Mensch fallacy?

You lot?

Developing and delivering training, police monitoring and strategies for the abolition of police

This very clear statement of how some of the money will be spent is from BLMUK's own GoFundMe page

The Guardian articles and endless mental gymnastics expended in trying to defend them are predictable, but fortunately most of us don't need a guide to understand that "abolition of the police" means abolition of the police

Because what alternative is there? Until we have a model of justice that doesn’t rely on racist police and a racist judiciary, all people can do is call for the tools we do have to be used in pursuit of justice.

Oh again

You are discussing the BLM UK

That is not the BLM movement

Black Lives Matter

That’s it and for them to really matter in all societies changes need to take place and they are starting to

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

How many variants of BLM are there?

I don’t know

How many feminist movements are there or different Christian sects - the core belief is the same

The money people are donating must go to the political group?
First aim to centre black trans women. Includes to obstruct the nuclear family or something like that. Also something about queer networks, is this linked to queer theory?

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

If you want to separate the two then that’s fair enough. This is a quote from one of the Black Lives Matter founders - “We’re not going to just be able to get rid of prisons in one day”. Here is also a picture from their official instagram calling for AbolitionNow. Follow the hashtag to see what it stands for.

Lets keep it real here. There’s not a chance in hell that that prisons will be abolished and funding removed from policing. It’s pie in the sky stuff.

here's the gofundme for the UKBLM movement. Down with capitalism. But not averse to a million quid of it, apparently...

uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund

here's the American one:

blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/

the concept of stopping racism seems to have been rather sidelined. Although how you actually change racist thinking is beyond me.

You are discussing the BLM UK ... That is not the BLM movement

Given the almost complete lack of transparency throughout I'm not sure how we can determine this, especially since Alicia Garza - one of the very few names available of who's involved in BLM - is said to have commented that they're not interested in "policing who is and who is not part of the movement"

Perhaps you have better information which could help us all to clarify this though?

They do not believe that the current system is working, but also recognise that while the system is in place they are forced to act within its remits.

Those living under a totalitarian regime probably hope to overthrow it, but they have to seek justice from its justice system whilst under its power (e.g Hunger Games).

Yes just keep to the core principal

Black Lives Matter

I’m a feminist I don’t support some feminist groups and others I do. I believe the core principle belief of females are equal to males and and that laws across the world should all recognise that and all laws should be implemented to recognise that. But also That comes along with social changes that doesn’t happen over night

But still it’s what I believe in

All this nonsense hand wringing you know police or the prisons system shall not be abolished so what’s the fear ?

My post isn’t about whether the prisons and/or police will get abolished, nor if you disagree with it. My point is if you do believe in the above (which Black Lives Matter does) then why would you want justice through it? You can’t fight a system you want to abolish by choosing the same path as it just as you can’t fight racial injustice with more racial injustice.

Now one of the cofounders has said “We’re actually fighting for a decentralized mental health model.” - this quote is in relation to the abolition of the prison system. I do think this is an admirable aim, of which I agree with in terms of more effort being put into rehabilitation rather than mainly punishment/justice. However I also believe in the punishment/justice side too but that is besides the point as they do not.

Simply put, if you want the focus to be on understanding and rehabilitation to the point that you wish to rid the world of prisons and not on punishment/justice through incarceration, then this has to be extended to all and that goes for any cops you believe to be guilty of a crime, alas you fail before you even start.

Their want of justice for the killing of George Floyd and not more understanding/rehabilitation (along with mental health help) of why the cop had done what he did, goes against ones of the very things they claim to stand for.

I have not seen on the BLM site anything about abolishing the legal system I have seen reforming the police and legal system