To suggest a campaign for a referendum on the death penalty for child abusers?

[TheVoiceOfReasonableness]

I’m a professional (I’m not going to reveal my capacity as it could be too outing) but let’s just say it is within the criminal justice system.

I have been involved with many cases of historic child abuse and child abuse images.

Although I could never voice this opinion publicly, because of my job, I really do think that we ought to consider the death penalty for child abusers.

The problem is, they can’t be cured.

The courses and “treatment” programmes that exist both inside and out of prison are geared towards “minimising risk” of committing further offences and are designed to give paedophiles “strategies” for avoiding “risky situations”. These only work if the paedophile is actually motivated not to hurt children.

The problem is paedophiles are extremely manipulative and are often quite intelligent.

They know what the offender manager (the modern term for a Probation Officer) wants to hear and may be saying all the right things while secretly still believing that there is nothing wrong with what they do.

The death penalty for child rape can easily be justified in my opinion. Arguably it is a worse crime than murder as the victim has to
live with the trauma of what has been done to them and it really does ruin lives permanently.

Now that we have left the EU (I voted remain, but every cloud has a silver lining...) bringing back the death penalty would be just as easy as having another referendum then passing legislation if the majority of the public want it.

We need not go down the American route of spending decades on death row- before we abolished it in the UK in the 1960s you got two appeals and that was it.

As for method- we had the quickest method with hanging and it would be all over in less than 15 seconds. There was no ceremony or last words, your cell was next door to the gallows you would be taken straight through- rope round neck, trapdoor opens, instant death from a broken neck.

Zero reoffending rate.

As for it being in humane and the right to life- innocent people including children die horribly from diseases like cancer all the time. 40,000 have died horribly from Coronavirus. I don’t think snapping the neck of a murderer or rapist who has abused a child to kill them instantly is that horrific TBH

@TheVoiceOfReasonableness

I should add that the views of survivors, as expressed here, has caused me to re-evaluate my position on the issue and consider it afresh. Theirs is the most important view of all, in my opinion. Thank you for those who have contributed- you have been listened to by me and educated me.

Iv not finished the thread as I needed a bit of a break from it.

But from someone who has experienced csa (from a perpetrator who has gone on to serve repeated sentences and is now in a list of most prolific offenders and has had to have one of the highest sopo's placed upon him) and now works in csa. Thankyou for stating out loud what a lot of us know and can't for obvious reasons say publicly but for listening as to why as much as it seems like the only way to protect people it really would be terrible for a lot of the people who suffer the abuse.

There's not really much to see with a long drop hanging anyway.

That doesn't mean its right or not traumatic for those involved officially - the actual concept of depriving someone of life no matter how humanely can still be traumatic.

@Hingeandbracket

It is a precondition of EU membership that the member state has abolished the death penalty.

I know we’re still a member of the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights.

EU law was supreme under the European Communities Act 1972.

The Council of Europe and ECtHR jurisprudence is not. A court cannot strike down a British statute if it is incompatible with the ECHR whereas it could disapply British statutes that were not compatible with EU law.

The European Convention on Human Rights Article 2 (right to life) provides that a person’s right to life is protected by law save in the execution of a sentence for which the penalty is provided by law.

It is Protocols 6 and 13 (later optional extras to the convention) that prohibit the death penalty.

One can derogate from the protocols (though would probably end up being booted out of the Council of Europe).

The Council of Europe is a talking shop and the ECtHR judgments are not enforceable in the same way EU law was.

However while we were in the EU we could not have the death penalty as abolition was a prerequisite to membership.

That doesn't mean its right or not traumatic for those involved officially - the actual concept of depriving someone of life no matter how humanely can still be traumatic.

Irony fail ....

I quite agree. I couldn't pull the lever/press the button/pull a trigger etc etc myself. And I would not expect someone else to do it for me either. It's barbaric and (as this thread sadly shows) it makes barbarians of us all.

@B1rdbra1n

People in my field occasionally express the view that they had better not say what they really think in case it gets them into trouble, and leave it at that.

One has to be professional after all.

When I’m dealing with one of these people I have to leave my personal feelings at the door, which is exactly what I do.

@hoodathunkit

Reading your post has made me realise more fully why child sex offenders exploit children;

Low likelihood of reporting and being believed at the time.

Vague memories they or others may not believe or be able to relay clearly of not reported at the time. When I think back to my childhood : even by teenage yrs, childhood memories had a vague, random, almost unreal quality. And if someone told you something didn't happen you'd question yourself.

(and you'd question/doubt yourself about your memories even if they didn't.

No doubt all contributes to why the abusers think "I won't get done for this".

Well I definitely agree with you. 100% believe that the death penalty should be brought back, but as you say, for paedophiles only. Who ever lays their fingers on a child in that way is not human and in my opinion does not deserve any rights!
Yes, a lot of you might disagree and think it’s extreme, but no person who inflicts these horrific crimes on a child does not deserve to live, this view is more on the ones who horrifically abuse and murder a child more than anything. However any person who abuses a child should not be allowed to ever walk around the same place as children, but that’s where the argument comes that to incarcerate a paedophile indefinitely is just expensive so this is where the idea of the death penalty sprouts up and does make sense!

There are far too many paedophiles and reoffenders around at the moment and I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable for one to live in my area near my child.

Yes you could argue ‘what about the wrongfully convicted’ well that’s where today’s modern science is used and if there is strong evidence that the person did commit the crime then the death penalty. If there isn’t strong evidence that is tied to that person then life sentence, and actual life sentence (like America!) until there is evidence that they did or did not commit the crime, and you know how I think it should go if strong evidence is then found!

Child abusers and killers are not human, they are monsters and I don’t believe that monsters can be cured!

I agree with you op, but have a reservation about miscarriages of justice.

As for executioners and their mental health .. there are people who can do that job without being affected much, it's their makeup. They wouldn't apply for it if they weren't like that. Plus you could mechanise it as much as possible.

to incarcerate a paedophile indefinitely is just expensive

Why can't they work in prison and earn their keep, like everyone else has to?

There are bound to be numerous jobs that could be done by prisoners. Does this not happen at all?

there are people who can do that job without being affected much, it's their makeup.

I'm very interested in who these people are, what your source is for the fact of their existence, and why we are happy about people who are able to murder others with no compunction walking around among the rest of us.

So few people on this thread have a clue how many ordinary people watch abusive images of children and young people

There are hundreds of thousands of ordinary men in this country watching them every day

They are NOT 'other' - they are ordinary people watching more and more extreme images

So many the police cannot in any way keep pace with them

You could find abusive images in about 3 clicks on the internet

Why can't they work in prison and earn their keep, like everyone else has to? [] There are bound to be numerous jobs that could be done by prisoners. Does this not happen at all?

But by doing those jobs, they'd be doing someone out of a paying job.

Also, call me silly, but I would have zero confidence that this shower of shites (let alone the next) wouldn't simply invent more crimes to lock people up for to have an endless supply of free labour.

I have a vague memory that some US prisons are unable to sell their manufacturer goods outside the US as they are considered the product of slave labour.

to incarcerate a paedophile indefinitely is just expensive

And how expensive are future investigations, trials,counselling and dealing with the trauma, including the fact that children that are abused are more likely to take up smoking,drugs,drinking too much, becoming overweight etc. Then when is comes to the offender, relocation, therapies, probation etc.

If cost is an issue when considering the safety of society/children, then it shouldn't be, because it's a false saving.

moral superiority
how can you speak of moral superiority whilst advocating that a person be tortured to death by an angry mob?
I dont want to live in a society where primitive and barbaric acts are accepted
eye for an eye, toothless and blind and all that

they had better not say what they really think in case it gets them into trouble, and leave it at that
TheVoice, could this be a visceral response to being subjected to people who are 'inhuman'?
Is there a sense of horror for which 'they deserve to die' is the most likely route of expression?

Reading your post has made me realise more fully why child sex offenders exploit children;

Low likelihood of reporting and being believed at the time.

The reasons why sex offenders exploit children are many and varied but the most common reason, at least as far as I can understand, is a complusion to act out sexually with a vulnerable, powerless person in a way that "spoils" them. I actually think that the grooming process is eroticised by and is gratifying for many perpetrators. The spoiling aspect has elements propriatorial excitement, control and of sadism. Obviously.

Some perpetrators may abuse children for financial gain, some to please an even worse perpetrator.

In some especially dangerous cults child sexual exploitaiton happens for a range of reasons. Some cultists have been brainwashed to believe that sexual activity between children and adults is a form of God's love or a gift from God.

Some believe in reincarnation and will claim that a child is an "old soul" in a child's body. Some claim that children are naturally sexually active and that society oppresses desire out of children (similar narrative to the PIE).

I do not think that offenders abuse children because they think that children won't be believed. They abuse children because, for the most part, they enjoy it.

Most grooming involves planting seeds of anxiety in the child's mind about the bad things that will happen if the child tells.

Vague memories they or others may not believe or be able to relay clearly of not reported at the time. When I think back to my childhood : even by teenage yrs, childhood memories had a vague, random, almost unreal quality. And if someone told you something didn't happen you'd question yourself.

That is the nature of memories. It is what it is and there's not a lot we can do about it.

(and you'd question/doubt yourself about your memories even if they didn't.

No doubt all contributes to why the abusers think "I won't get done for this".

I suspect that the time energy and effort put into grooming and brainwashing children and vulnerable adults suggests that perpetrators are actually very concerned about getting "done for this" and go to extraordinary lengths to try to keep their victims quiet.

I’m of the opinion that paedophiles have an inherent mental illness. The illness , whilst deplorable, is still a mental illness... a sickness of the mind. That being said, should they be ‘killed’ as a result of their illness?
We should look at why they feel the compulsion to destroy children’s lives. It needs to be addressed so that society can learn from it and then find ways of assessing future paedophilic tendencies.
To just kill a human being , because their mind doesn’t fit in to ‘normal parameters’ is deplorable.

And yes, I agree that paedophiles are disgusting and their deeds are utterly abhorrent but proper research and rehabilitation methods need to be explored.

That being said, should they be ‘killed’ as a result of their illness?

They would be killed as a result of acting on their "illness". Because they harmed,raped,abused a child. Not because they are "ill".

Could you think of a better way to make sure a child abuser will never reoffend once back in society?

There's also the tragic case of Stephen Kizsko, who was totally innocent and developed schizophrenia in prison

You don’t develop schizophrenia because you’re in prison, it’s something you either have or you don’t not situational like depression or an STD

Perpetrators also use emotional blackmail to keep their victims quiet. I was kept quiet by threats to hurt my DSis, who I was very protective of. My F also told us that if my DM knew it would break her heart. (She had really bad PMT for years and excess bleeding, so this threat worked.)

My F was badly damaged, as a result of the way his family in Prague suffered during WW2, his father and uncle both died. He was a very bitter man, and hated the Germans, even after becoming a devout Christian missionary. He also had Parkinson's Disease and several strokes and in the end died of septicaemia in hospital. But he was manipulative enough to be able to cover his tracks and keep us quiet.

My DM has asked quite a few times why we didn't tell her, so it's something I've thought about a lot. It's actually quite difficult to really know the reason. One important factor is that it's difficult for a child to vocalise what's going on. But we were also very afraid, as we'd all been threatened that bad things would happen if we said anything.

The result of us not telling is that none of the perpetrators were convicted. My F apologised at the end to my DSis for what he'd put us through as children. The only person who could have been charged was my DB, who is very damaged and definitely not a threat, so it would have served no public interest at all to charge him and my DSis and I agreed on this.

@BubblyBarbara Okay, maybe he would have developed the symptoms anyway, and may he had it before he went to prison, it's clear that he wasn't well before he was wrongly convicted. I'm not a psychiatrist, so I obviously don't know how it develops. My DB was diagnosed with it in the past, though seeing that my DSis and I have both been diagnosed with PTSD because of our childhood trauma, the chances are he has that, too.

Whatever the diagnosis, that poor man's life was destroyed and his mother's too. I included it as an argument against the death penalty not to discuss what he suffered from and when.

I don’t know what shocks me more - that you actually think this or that over 100 people agree with you.

Absolutely not. The death penalty is outdated, primitive and barbaric. The possibility of wrongful execution makes it a complete non-starter. I would vote, and campaign against it in all circumstances.

BUT

For the worst child abusers, life should and must mean life. There are far too many naive, gullible, guilt-ridden, politically-correct middle class do-gooders in the criminal justice system who see violent criminals as victims and don’t give a damn about protecting the public from them.

@Alsohuman

I know.

Quite a lot of people, on a lot of subjects these days, seem shocked and outraged that other people have different opinions to their own.