To think its not undesirable to be working class?

[HotSince82]

And that actually you can live a perfectly nice life and be quite content, with no aspirations towards upwards social mobility?

I have been noticing in the news at present that WC children are being termed 'disadvantaged' with regards to homeschooling.
Presumably this is in relation to a supposed lack of laptops/ipads etc to aid online learning and/or lack of parental engagement/education level.
From personal experience I don't believe this to be the case. My children and their peers almost without exception have access to these things and parents are motivated and educated sufficiently to support their children's learning.
I am however in no way denying the very real experiences of the children who are living in economically and socially disadvantaged circumstances. I fundamentally believe that every possible scrap of governmental/educational support and assistance available should be provided to them throughout the covid crisis and beyond. I simply don't believe that such disadvantage is a reality within the very vast majority of WC households.

Surely WC isn't synonymous with disadvantage? I feel as though my family has a perfectly nice lifestyle as do those of my acquaintances who are all, broadly speaking very much WC.

I would go so far as to say that I would be content if any of my children replicated a standard of living which is similar to how they have been brought up. Yes, if they become extremely high earners that would I'm certain be rather lovely, but it is in no way a prerequisite to an enjoyable, contented life.

I'm pretty sure that I am correct in this assumption but if I'm missing anything I know that you will all point me in the right direction.

@Sn0tnose I'm working class and I wouldn't want to live on a council estate to be honest. 🤷‍♀️

@riotlady I definitely think there is something in what you say.
The bar, so to speak of MC identity is rather high around here. So your GP is probably MC and so is your solicitor or architect etc.
Most 'normal' people teachers, nurses, civil servants, social workers, police officers would never call themselves MC. Unless perhaps their parents were established MC themselves.

I accept it may be different elsewhere but to purport to be MC on 30K amongst my social group would certainly raise a few eyebrows.

No, it is not undesirable to be working class.

However... it is extremely undesirable to be so obsessed with class to the point that you look down on others because you think you are a better class of person than they are.

I was raised "properly" working class. On a council estate, frequently cold and hungry.

When I was on a salary of £30k, warm and well fed - I guarantee I regarded myself as middle class.

That’s were I disagree for me one of the main reasons for being working class and proud was to lift people up. The most vulnerable needs being at the forefront. Not forgetting your roots and remember just because you have done ok, doesn’t mean everyone else has the same opportunities.

@LinemanForTheCounty Yeah I'm not gonna lie I was already thinking about "Common People".

If I manage to do an online degree and get a better job and a mortgage then I dont know if I would define myself as middle class. But I do know that if you're asking yourself if you are still working class, you're probably more towards MC than you think. (Generic You).

I've never had to wonder if I might be considered middle class, lets just put it that way. 😂

I absolutely wouldn't consider you working class with a household income of 50k plus.

This conflation of different levels within working class is nothing new. One of the tasks we did in a politics lesson once at school was to use the butler and stokes social classification definitions to assess our own class and tell everyone. I said i was working class, the teacher asked me a few questions and then promptly informed me and the whole group that i was wrong and was actually part of the underclass.. Nice way to find out

Most 'normal' people teachers, nurses, civil servants, social workers, police officers would never call themselves MC

I wonder where you live. I would definitely call most of those jobs middle class.

@Mumoblue I honestly can't think of anywhere outside of mumsnet that would make me question my social class.

@Boulshired I wouldn't describe myself as 'working class and proud' I'm simply working class, no more proud than if I was any other social class via accident of birth.
The MC have always seemed to me a distinct minority, most people I have known professionally and socially have been working class. Its only here, on MN that I am persuaded to think differently and to consider the fact that where I live plays a part in class consciousness that perhaps doesn't translate outside of Merseyside.

As for raising the standard of living for the disadvantaged well, that has little to do with my individual class identity and everything to do with my political persuasion and voting behaviour.

Most 'normal' people teachers, nurses, civil servants, social workers, police officers would never call themselves MC

Traditionally they would have been considered MC because WC people used to have to get their hands dirty

Why are you so determined not to be MC OP? Why the constant reference to your accent?

The OP’s household income puts her in the top 20ish percent of households, but in terms of households with two full time incomes, she’s slightly below average. A household made up of a tube driver and a postie could easily be earning close to six figures after overtime.

@JustAnotherPoster00 I'm not determined not to be, but I would be laughed out of town if I thought that I was and voiced such an opinion.
As I said previously traditionally where I grew up and still live the MC are considered to be a very wealthy minority. I have accepted that Merseyside may be a socially geographic anomaly in regards to social class but nobody around here would determine I was MC, so its difficult to be told by some people on MN that I must be due to my income.

@WobblyPenumbra well I work circa 45 hours and DH 23 so our income is probably close to average. Is that mean or median btw?
In any case to be considered MC would necessitate earning more than average surely? Once DC are accounted for even 60K is rather modest.

I think the problem is that class has become less segregated and more of a spectrum.

The working class are those who must work in order to sustain themselves (ie if you dont have a job you are in trouble). So basically people who live paycheck to paycheck.

The ruling class are those who others work for and who enrich them (ie if your employees dont turn up to where your capital is invested or your renters dont pay, you lose money). So people like large landlords, company directors, investment bankers etc)

The middle class are those working class people who have some elements of the ruling class (eg maybe a few stocks and shares, a buy-to-let, a small business).

Its not about accent, where you go on your hols or how many ipads you have, its about whether your lifestyle depends on your own labour or on the labour of others.

I don’t think working class as it is traditionally defined exists any more.

There is a generally deprived class.

Then there is a class that’s not affluent, but coping ok and is indistinguishable from lower m/c bar a few cultural markers that aren’t even that consequential.

@Cailleachian Well there you go, I'm fucked if I lose my job. Its not entirely likely but its possible, ergo WC.

Median full time income is as near 30K as makes no difference.

Your income is better than average for one full timer and part timer, but of course it’s not about money: there are lots of “working class” jobs and people which earn more than the average: tube and bus drivers earn a good living; I’ve worked with a fair few non-graduate “barrow boys” in the City who are doing very nicely thank you; and of course the whole point about Marcus Rashford is that although he’s filthy rich, he’s not magically become middle class.

@WobblyPenumbra well precisely. And as those with a slightly above average family income, quite a few DC, HCP and civil servant from WC backgrounds, I think we'd be forgiven for not considering ourselves anything other than WC.

Financially comfortable and educated aren't terms mutually exclusive with a WC identity, which was rather the initial point of the thread. SO thank you for concurring where many have sought not to.

You’re obviously mc, op but not comfortable with that as you have some negative thoughts about the middle class. “Regional” accents just mean you come from outside London, not that you’re some sort of salt of the earth wc scamp.

@CayrolBaaaskin I have no negative thoughts about the MC. As I experience them they are a financially comfortable and socially established, rather educated group.
The fact that I don't identify with them is not at all to their detriment, or mine for that matter.

I am a person that really cannot identify with class, I am getting middle class benefits but am from a working class background. If I called myself working class my family would laugh and if I called myself middle class I would be quickly be reminded that I am a dockers daughter. Many people fall into that overlap because that is what social mobility is. This has also been blurred with some manual labour now providing wages that are equal to degree employment.

@Boulshired what MC benefits do you mean?
I find it strange that you could consider yourself MC as the daughter of a docker but then you have moved south so I suppose that's it.
My auntie who married a Wiltshire farmer/architect considers herself MC and the family let her get away with it because she moved away. She grew up in the Dingle and most of her siblings bar a few moved to council estates in Runcorn years ago. Their children are now mainly teachers working in Warrington and Halewood. None of them, despite their professions would consider themselves MC.
I'm the 'posh' relation whose parents moved to the Wirral as my dad got a police house here in the seventies. With my background I find it ludicrous that anyone would consider me socially comparable to the daughter of a couple of medics for example.

I’ve have options, I can afford to send my children to an outstanding school, I can if needed get them tutors, they will not have the same obstacles in life. They can choose a career path. They might have been successful anyway had I not been able to afford a outstanding school but it would have been harder. I would not describe myself as middle class but I have benefited from social mobility.

@Boulshired I do understand what you mean, I too have been able to secure those benefits for my children. I just haven't perceived them as solely related to the MC.
There are lots of outstanding schools where I currently live, especially at primary level and we are in a grammar area for secondary. My DD didnt pass the 11+ and I refuse to our tutor an average academic aptitude, but we have one of the best girls' comprehensives in the country here where she was fortunate enough to gain a place.
If you feel you have benefitted from social mobility then that is only to be applauded.

This thread has made me consider the discrepancy of 'MC by Merseyside standards Vs MC by 'UK on the whole'.
If nothing else it has provided some elucidation re voting behaviours. Little wonder our whole county votes labour when our economic and social comparators down south see fit to vote tory.

Very interesting indeed.