To think its not undesirable to be working class?

[HotSince82]

And that actually you can live a perfectly nice life and be quite content, with no aspirations towards upwards social mobility?

I have been noticing in the news at present that WC children are being termed 'disadvantaged' with regards to homeschooling.
Presumably this is in relation to a supposed lack of laptops/ipads etc to aid online learning and/or lack of parental engagement/education level.
From personal experience I don't believe this to be the case. My children and their peers almost without exception have access to these things and parents are motivated and educated sufficiently to support their children's learning.
I am however in no way denying the very real experiences of the children who are living in economically and socially disadvantaged circumstances. I fundamentally believe that every possible scrap of governmental/educational support and assistance available should be provided to them throughout the covid crisis and beyond. I simply don't believe that such disadvantage is a reality within the very vast majority of WC households.

Surely WC isn't synonymous with disadvantage? I feel as though my family has a perfectly nice lifestyle as do those of my acquaintances who are all, broadly speaking very much WC.

I would go so far as to say that I would be content if any of my children replicated a standard of living which is similar to how they have been brought up. Yes, if they become extremely high earners that would I'm certain be rather lovely, but it is in no way a prerequisite to an enjoyable, contented life.

I'm pretty sure that I am correct in this assumption but if I'm missing anything I know that you will all point me in the right direction.

I wonder who worries more about class and which class they fall into? WC/MC or UC?

Seriously? You have to ask?

I have scrolled to the bottom to post this, so hope it's not redundant. OP please can you take the BBC class test and tell us what it says?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

@HotSince82

Seriously? You have to ask?

Me? I really don’t know! Class isn’t a conversation I have in real life with people I know. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone I know actually state what class they think they are.

I get the impression that maybe the MC try hard to show they are MC, but does that actually mean they are WC? Because if you are true to your class you don’t have to try to be it? You just are?

Is class really something unique to this country? People say that the USA don’t have classes like we do, but culturally on TV you see comments about “trailer trash” etc and Jerry Springer seems pretty close to our Jeremy Kyle examples of WC?

"SueEllenMishke

I only ever come across class snobbery on MN.
Lower class FFS 🙄"

Well they arent working? So cant be working class. Theres various class systems...lower, middle, and upper...and the term working class, sort of separate to that. I'd presume if you were going to put people in lower, it would be those not working and on benefits and those a bit like the families in shameless and on sink estates. Otherwise, what class would you put those in?

I'm not British so am endlessly fascinated with the obsession with 'class' here. Most places I've lived, your class status more or less directly correlates with your income - whereas here, and as seen on this thread, you can earn a lot of money and own property but still consider yourself 'working class'. Why is it so important to hold on to these personal definitions? There seems to be a lot of pride in the various 'classes' and how you define yourself, but I do wonder if its because people like to judge other people because of their perceived class?

To outsiders its very strange. I once had the most confusing argument of my life that brought this up - I was renting a room in a shared house and our neighbors all owned. Our next door neighbor used to always let her family park park in our spot, and after asking her to move her car for the 5th time, I asked her to please stop parking in the spot even if it was empty. Its our spot after all! Well, she went absolutely nuts, saying I was 'just a renter' and I 'didn't know how this neighborhood worked' and that she had 'good working class values' and I was an 'up myself cunt' etc etc.

I mean she clearly had a screw or two loose, but I was just so surprised that she brought up WC values?? It was so weird. She owned a 3 bed house in zone 2 London and left for work at 8am everyday in a suit - def didn't seem to have a working class job etc...

What does WC values mean in this context? It was so weird. Like fair enough you are used to using this parking space with previous tenants but why bring class into it?

"'m not British so am endlessly fascinated with the obsession with 'class' here"
I dont think we have an obsession with class. Nobody really cares these days, and I only hear it really on Mumsnet. The whole of the population isnt that bothered.

"but I do wonder if its because people like to judge other people because of their perceived class?"

You need to put people into a class to judge others, people judge quite happily about various things, across classes. I judge people who smoke for example. I also judge people who I'd consider to be on a par with me for the way they manage themselves.

But the people who appear on Jeremy Kyle are not typical of many working class people. That's the point that the OP is trying to make.

Having a stable home life, decent income, being educated, interested in arts, media, museums etc are not the preserve of the middle classes. These are also of importance to most WC people, although may be inaccessible to some with lower incomes, but once sufficient income is in place, WC people like/do these things too.

The people that appear on Jeremy Kyle, are generally disadvantaged people where there are concerns about not having enough to eat, time or resources for home schooling etc are, as some of us have learned from this thread, 'precariat' or people who suffer from unpredictable or insecure incomes and home/life circumstances, often due to poor mental or physical health or addictions.

These people will mostly be from working class backgrounds, but not exclusively so. But it does not follow that all, or even the majority of people who are working class suffer these disadvantages and just because someone has a decent income and university education and stable home life, this does not stop them from being working class, or make them middle class.

"What does WC values mean in this context"

If means a hard worker, a grafted, but not that she is a bricklayer. I think that's the Engkish language phrases there, she wasnt claiming she was better than you.

That should have said "grafter". And good honest principles.

And that should have said you dont need to put people into a class to judge them.

@tabbymumz well she did say that she had 'good working class values' and I didn't apparently, so I do think she was trying to say she was better than me somehow?

I mean it was no skin of my back, I'm not one to be hurt by what people I don't know say about me, but I would argue that there is a concern with class in this country, if not an obsession - people do talk about it (like my neighbor) and even if it 'just' on MN, is this not a form of social interaction and discussion?

Some people would class me as middle class then because I have a degree which to me is ridiculous.
I live in a council flat in a shitty area and was brought up as a free school meals kid. I'm a lone parent and earn 25k per year. I'm actually about to buy a house in a slightly better part of our very working class town. It's an ex council house and costs 80k.
Most of the people I know are financially better off (because they're not lone parents) but don't have a degree and do manual jobs.
There's nothing wrong with being working class

tabbymumz in sociological terms 'lower class' doesn't feature as an official definition.

Interesting, so teachers, social workers, nurses, civil servants and police officers are WC (according to OP)? I always thought those were MC jobs.

Btw OP i do agree with you that WC isn't synonymous with "disadvantaged" and agree with your general point.

"BarbaraofSeville

But the people who appear on Jeremy Kyle are not typical of many working class people. That's the point that the OP is trying to make."
I eouldnt put the majority of people on Jeremy Kyle in the working class group. To me they are lower class.

I think MC jobs are traditionally Dr, Barrister, Banker etc. I think maybe teacher and nurse could be either, but emergency services such as police, firefighter etc would be WC traditionally.

Armed forces are interesting, I wonder if there’s distinctions of class between rank?

@BarbaraofSeville I only brought up Jeremy Kyle in comparison to Jerry Springer. I meant that the USA does have parallel classes to us, but for some reason it’s thought that classes are distinctive to the U.K.?

To me they are lower class.

Some would say they are underclass - which is a nasty expression.

SueEllenMishke

"abbymumzin sociological terms 'lower class' doesn't feature as an official definition."
Well you cant have a middle without a lower and an upper.
And if you do consider working class to be the lowest, what do you call people who dont work. That's the problem you see, working class used to be used for the real end of the scale hard workers, factory workers, bricklayer, sheet metal workers, steel workers etc, but now people who work in business consider themselves to be in that category too, so it's all changed. You also get the people who have really moved across classes but wont have it. My Father started off life in working class but moved to what I would call middle class, but to him he will always be working class .

When the term working class started up, there wasnt really an underclass of people like on shameless, not working because they couldnt be arsed and living the life on benefits, as there were no benefits. If you didnt work, you didnt eat

Lower class doesn't exist as category. Underclass is the terminology - it's controversial and not a term I'm comfortable with.

"Armed forces are interesting, I wonder if there’s distinctions of class between rank?"
Well I'm sure Officer's, or Colonels or Captains dont consider themselves working class.

@TabbyMumz

"Armed forces are interesting, I wonder if there’s distinctions of class between rank?" Well I'm sure Officer's, or Colonels or Captains dont consider themselves working class.

What if you started as a squady from a WC family? Do you change class with rank?