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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think its not undesirable to be working class?

329 replies

HotSince82 · 17/06/2020 19:44

And that actually you can live a perfectly nice life and be quite content, with no aspirations towards upwards social mobility?

I have been noticing in the news at present that WC children are being termed 'disadvantaged' with regards to homeschooling.
Presumably this is in relation to a supposed lack of laptops/ipads etc to aid online learning and/or lack of parental engagement/education level.
From personal experience I don't believe this to be the case. My children and their peers almost without exception have access to these things and parents are motivated and educated sufficiently to support their children's learning.
I am however in no way denying the very real experiences of the children who are living in economically and socially disadvantaged circumstances. I fundamentally believe that every possible scrap of governmental/educational support and assistance available should be provided to them throughout the covid crisis and beyond. I simply don't believe that such disadvantage is a reality within the very vast majority of WC households.

Surely WC isn't synonymous with disadvantage? I feel as though my family has a perfectly nice lifestyle as do those of my acquaintances who are all, broadly speaking very much WC.

I would go so far as to say that I would be content if any of my children replicated a standard of living which is similar to how they have been brought up. Yes, if they become extremely high earners that would I'm certain be rather lovely, but it is in no way a prerequisite to an enjoyable, contented life.

I'm pretty sure that I am correct in this assumption but if I'm missing anything I know that you will all point me in the right direction.

OP posts:
Sailingblue · 18/06/2020 10:38

BarbaraofSeville

Well for me the combo of the following:

  • dad was a police man and she’s friends with nurses, civil servants
  • She had a degree as does most of her cousins and friends.
  • Her definition of middle class was £80k plus in a 5 bedroom house which would be a v small percentage of households.
  • the OP acknowledged that her definition of middle class in her area might be narrower than how others might define it.
Blackbear19 · 18/06/2020 10:44

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal

"My children were raised on a council estate. They were neither cold or hungry."

Sorry, @Nickname21, I did not mean to imply that everyone who lives on a council estate was! I know they weren't, most of the people around me were not. But I was, there was rarely enough money for both food and heating, and often not enough for either. Hence why it gets my goat when someone on a very comfortable income, able to run a car and take holidays, claims not to know why people get so concerned about the working classes.

Greebols, you sound very much like some of the children in my primary school class. The vast majority of kids were working class, blue collar working parents, from council estates with one or two who had there own house. The standard was a UK holiday for a week.

But there were also a couple of kids like you who's parents seemed to really struggle and who really were on the bread line.

I don't know what I actually said here the other week but I was accused of being uncaring middle class.Confused

However class isn't the issue in accessing online education. Two things are required a parent at home and technology.

The vast majority of houses have devices that can access Google Classroom, Tablets, Laptops, Xbox, PS4 or have the money to plug the gap.

The families who don't have devices or money are also most likely to be the families with a parent at home either unemployed or furloughed.

The children who's parents are working are struggling too. How parents are meant to work, entertain preschoolers and teach at the same time is beyond me.

So in summary,

Some have tech, but cannot teach
Some can teach, but have no tech,
We have tech and we can teach,
So say the lord, we thank it.

Unashamedly adaptable from the Selkirk Grace.

ArriettyJones · 18/06/2020 10:59

But then what's the point of using the class system at all?

There isn’t one really. This thread shows exactly how muddy it all is. Once upon a time the British class system was much closer to a caste system and most people were trapped in their allotted place. Once we started meddling around educating people and giving them decent life chances, the system started to crumble.

We should just move on to income brackets or occupation to divide people up in the occasions that they need classification.

HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 11:13

So to summarise;
When WC children are referred to as disadvantaged by various media sources, the term which they should be employing is 'precariat'. I do however see the issue with this, as I was unaware of this portmanteau and I was an A level sociology student circa 2001/2 so I presume its a relatively novel terminology.

The MC are presumably accepted to be a much larger and more disparate class than the WC. This is extremely surprising to me, as I have stated previously it certainly runs counter intuitively to my beliefs and those of the majority of my peers. I'm quite prepared to believe that it is the case and the discrepancy of opinion is drawn via geographical lines as well as socioeconomic ones.

It really does explain the phenomenon of 'WC tories'. Now you don't get many of those up here in Merseyside, here the WC tend to vote Labour and the majority consider themsmelves WC.
Conversely in other parts of the country and notably down south, excepting London, people whom I would term WC demonstrably vote overwhelmingly for the tories. This has always perplexed me and its been the cause of many discussions within my friendship groups. The answer is simple though, isn't it? Those who I consider to be WC tories actually consider themselves to be MC.
Far be it from me to disabuse them of the notion, class identity does appear to be subjective rather than prescriptive.
I finally understand why Blair was so keen to make us believe that we are 'all middle class now' the man played an absolute blinder. I mean, it didn't work up here but even so...

Sorry that I have gone off on a political tangent, it wasn't the intention of the thread but its honestly been a revelation that so great a number of the population seemingly now identify as MC.

OP posts:
Blackbear19 · 18/06/2020 11:16

We should just move on to income brackets or occupation to divide people up in the occasions that they need classification

This is why they tend to talk about low, middle and high income families, hard working families and unemployed.

The line between working and middle class is so blurry and muddy. Helped along by free uni and grants of the 70's 80's and 90's. Even beyond that the government encouraged lots of kids to attend uni and college.

ArriettyJones · 18/06/2020 11:18

Five or six brackets would do the job better.

ArriettyJones · 18/06/2020 11:19

This is why they tend to talk about low, middle and high income families, hard working families and unemployed.

TBH, four of those are fairly neutral descriptors and one of them is a loaded propaganda term.

HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 11:20

@Sailingblue believe it or not, I have always comsidered the MC to be a rather small percentage of households.

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HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 11:22

@ArriettyJones agreed, bloody 'hard working families', nothing more than a patronising tool of the divide and conquer rhetoric.

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ArriettyJones · 18/06/2020 11:22

This thread is making me want to move to Liverpool or The Wirral Grin

ArriettyJones · 18/06/2020 11:25

[quote HotSince82]@ArriettyJones agreed, bloody 'hard working families', nothing more than a patronising tool of the divide and conquer rhetoric.[/quote]
Quite.

Sailingblue · 18/06/2020 11:32

HotSince82 I just find it quite interesting how area dependent it seems to be in terms of perceptions. Where I am, no-one would bat an eyelid at you being middle class but obviously that is different in your circle. I wonder as well about the distinction between upper middle class and middle. The re is a massive lifestyle difference and I don’t think it does anyone any favours to pretend the middle class is a homogenous group.

HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 11:33

@ArriettyJones I can't recommend it enough, we'll be glad to have you Smile

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HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 11:40

@Sailingblue I don't think anybody does view it as homogenous. Ironic that you should make that point in particular when the initial premise of the thread was that the WC is perhaps viewed more homogenously than it deserves to be.

UMC tend to be the descendants of the old captains of industry, generations of medics, lawyers, accountants, architects. Family firms of these professions running down generational lines. Essentially the upper echelons who are not the aristocracy.
I am aware of the differentiation, they are quite another strata entirely than the 'Hyacinths' of this country, perhaps not the best example actually as the Buckets were decidedly WC and that was rather the joke, wasn't it?

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WombatChocolate · 18/06/2020 12:00

In my mind, people's class is largely about their upbringing, which influenced things like attitudes, education and income. Some people 'break out' from the norm of their background, perhaps in terms of education or income, which might or might not alter their attitudes and values. They may then seem a different class and their children might be brought up very differently and essentially be a different class.

Working class to me tends to mean no degree, or possibly a degree from a low ranked uni which doesn't tend to get people into the professions. Limited qualifications might result in the kind of jobs which have very fixed working hours where people start and end at a certain time and are largely directed in what they do. These can involve promotions and becoming supervisors etc. Income might vary from only what comes from benefits to really good incomes. In my mind many working class value stuff more than experiences so might like big TVs and regular new sofas and not have huge amounts of savings, so as a previous poster says, if something goes wrong,mothers isn't much of a buffer. There might be buying on credit - so cars on finance plans, technology on similar, often using Help to Buy etc for houses....things that mean you pay more innthenlomg run because you couldn't pay upfront. But some working class are very frugal too. Attitudes can be different and about avoiding the big struggles of huge hard work at school, but being focused more in happiness than academic and economic success....obviously generalising a lot here. Probably less planning ahead for the kids than the middle class do and a bit more of going with the flow or only realising eater late that to have certain options, choices needed to be made far in advance than they have been or were possible because of circumstances. So it's about having less choices.

In the past the vast majority of the population were working class. Few people had degrees and most people had low paid and low skilled work and were the norm. These days, lots of people don't want to be called working class but middle class. Because they own houses and have some qualifications and more money to spend they consider themselves middle class. Instead, the term working class has come to be used for the under-class - those who survive on benefits and which has negative con nations, such a s families in the drama Shameless. So perhaps there is this group who might have very little education and aspiration ( and of course not everyone on benefits is like this - the low aspiration is key to being under class) and then there are low paid workers, who consider themselves middle class because they have a lot of technology in their homes and other stuff...regular new clothes and stuff and big piles of Christmas presents....proving to the world and themesleves that they can't be working class.

Middle classes have more choices and less to prove. It's about attitude and being confident and this confidence often comes from knowing you have a background, or an education, or money in the bank, which means you will have options. Even if things go a bit wrong, you have resources to help you out. These might arise from family who will bail you out, from education which means you are resourceful and can get a job, or money in the bank to draw on. There's no need to prove yourself with lots of stuff because you already have that confidence.

Often those who grew up working class and became affluent still feel a need to prove themselves. Having plenty of everything still has novelty factor and remembering soft the feelings of others knowing you lacked certain things, can lead to the desire to show you have plenty of everything.....is this why people buy vast piles of stuff for their kids at Christmas ..because they didn't have it themselves? This can still be prevalent amongst those with high incomes and who are well educated. As time goes on, they might 'learn' to value experiences more than stuff and to teach their kids some of those values and because their kids grow up with those values, they essentially are middle class.

I think our backgrounds always influence us, even if we like to think we've moved on. They influence our attitudes and values to some degrees. From outside people often just see the level of affluence and not so quickly attitudes which prevail.

The affluent adult who is very keen to promote education and aspiration in their own children, might have had a bit of a struggle to get where they are and want to make sure their children earn the way to avoiding slipping back down. A different affluent adult who is more laid back about driving towards a traditional middle class career might be someone from a working class background who still holds those views or someone from a more affluent upbringing themselves, who because they have always known security, aren't so worried about their children's future because they take affluence as a given and just expect it to continue.

ArriettyJones · 18/06/2020 12:18

[quote HotSince82]@ArriettyJones I can't recommend it enough, we'll be glad to have you Smile[/quote]
Ah thanks! Smile

Blackbear19 · 18/06/2020 12:19

WombatChocolate
Sorry but you've done a heck of a lot of generalizing and stereotyping.

Back in the '70s and possibly still going on. Many many tradespeople (bricklayers, joiners, electricians, plumbers) were paid a low basic wage and a large performance related bonus, building societies and banks refused to take into account bonus money when assessing for mortgages.
These people are hard working often very frugal knowing that construction can be boom / bust need savings money for rainy days - the rainy days that stopped work. They very much wanted better for their kids than they had it and value education because getting an apprenticeship has never been easy.

WombatChocolate · 18/06/2020 12:46

Blackbear, I regularly mentioned that certain things I said were generalisations.

When we talk about class, generalisations have to be involved because we are categorising vast quantities of people. I made clear that I was mentioning many different things and some or all might apply and not everyone fits all of them.

Society has changed and affluence in general has grown....which is why the term working class is viewed as something they don't want to be labelled as, by many.....especially if they feel they have moved on. In the past people didn't see it as negative. It's a perception thing isn't it.

Blackbear19 · 18/06/2020 14:45

Wombat I don't know that people don't want to be see / think of themselves as working class.

But then I don't know two many working class people as you describe them, who'd value material things over experience or who'd spend every penny they've got.

Affluence has grown, I'd agree with you there. But that's mainly because goods are cheaper, because they are made using cheap labour overseas.

But I wonder if what you are trying to get at is a stigma attached to council estates, now that didn't used to be there.

HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 15:29

@WombatChocolate whilst on the whole you have vastly over generalised I agree with the fact that WC people are unlikely to employ anything like the level of forward planning to their lives as MC people do.

I've always been very 'lets see where life takes me', whereas a hallmark of the MC consciousness and behaviour is the 'five/ten year plan.' For example, knowing from year eight that you need to study separate sciences st GCSE so you can access Medicine/Vet sci at a russell group uni. That kind of thing just wasn't on my radar. I did go to a russell group but only because I liked the city and got good grades, my parents and I were not fully aware of the difference of opportunity between a red brick and an ex poly. If we had been MC I'm sure we'd have planned for a child of my aptitude to have aimed a bit higher.

I have a nice life, entirely by accident rather than much by design. I don't think that would be true of somebody who has been raised as MC.

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WombatChocolate · 18/06/2020 16:01

Yes, I think you’re right that I feel there is a stigma attached to being in social housing that wasn’t there before. When a vast proportion lived in council houses and mostly worked in standard, full time jobs, it was seen as totally normal. In fact, those estates were a huge step up for lots of people being rehoused from the inner cities. With so many now sold off and fewer remaining, areas with high desires of remaining social housing are often associated with troublesome families and people who don’t want to work - very different to 50 years ago. These people form a small part of the working class, but in some people’s minds are what they think of re morning class, and understandably, the working class who work and may or may not live in social housing and who live perfectly normal happy lives, don’t want to be associated with that group or lumped in with them. If a typical working class job in certain areas can bring people home ownership, lots of consumer goods, some holidays and a sense that their kids might go to uni if they want to, some of those people would prefer to think of themselves as middle class....or not, because some still value being working class highly.

Does that vary according to area and it’s history and the proportion who still consider their historic connections important?

I agree that the mc tend to plan ahead much more. They have more choices in life, delivered by having more money, education, soft skills and inbuilt sense of entitlement to things working out. They make the good things happen and seize control rather than perhaps being a bit passive and letting life happen to them. Isn’t it the difference too in the workplace between being a decision maker and someone who basically does what they’re told, even though that can involve some supervisory aspects too.

Some northern towns still have a strong and proud working class spirit. They are often quite poor areas but low housing prices mean working class wages can buy property, but things like community clubs are still valued. There’s often a suspicion of middle class or maybe southern ideas and holding on with fierce loyalty to the heritage of communities built on industries which often no longer exist.

HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 16:28

@WombatChocolate forgive me, but you sound exactly like my old Harralambos and Holborn A level sociology textbook Grin Your views were probably more accurate twenty or so years ago but the WC have moved on somewhat since then.
We are as likely to be decision makers in the workplace as MC people in some professions; notably nursing & allied health professions and teaching.

The WC you describe doesn't really fit with those whom I know personally. It makes me wonder about your own class origins and if everything you perceive as fact re the WC really does stem from those outdated textbooks.

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WombatChocolate · 18/06/2020 17:59

Oh well, just sharing my thoughts on an open forum - it’s the way I see it. Happy to hear other ways of viewing it too.

Colom · 18/06/2020 18:04

IME Wombat is spot on with pretty much every word.

While you have generalised and not all those generalisations apply to my upbringing, I can think of a close family member or childhood friend for every descriptor.

I come from a very WC background (think council estate, parents with no education past the age of 13) but they worked very hard to get us out of that life and I'm grateful every day. While it has beneficially shaped my life in some ways, I would never, ever want that upbringing for my DC.

As the child of a police officer you would never have been considered working class where I'm from OP!

HotSince82 · 18/06/2020 18:37

As the child of a police officer you would never have been considered working class where I'm from OP!

I find it odd that anybody could identify a police officer as MC. My dad had O levels, he didn't go to uni and if I was to hazard a guess probably earned about 35K at the pinnacle of his career prior to retirement.

I don't think many MC people would have considered him, and by extension me as one of their number.

And that's rather my point, there are different degrees of WC in exactly the same way that the MC are stratified upper, middle and lower. If your dad is a docker you will be WC, but if your dad is a copper you are also still most likely WC.

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