To ask how you 'prod' uninvolved DH in the right direction?

[HiddenTheRemote]

Name-changed for this one...

So in our 20s, DH and I were both fairly disorganised, lazy, untidy, enjoyed going out, hated housework, got up really late at the weekend, ate takeout and microwave meals a lot, watched lots of TV...We just about managed to get by without throttling each other as we were both working long hours in demanding jobs and, let's face, how much is there to do at home with 2 adults?

Fast forward now. Early 30s. 1 toddler DC. I accepted early on that some aspects of our lives would have to change. For example, we'd have to at least do the minimum to keep DC alive and happy, tidy the house now and then, put the occasional meal in front of DC, not leave unsupervised on weekend mornings. Painful but necessary. Problem is that DH hasn't quite come to the same realisation. He's still disorganised, lazy, untidy, enjoys going out, hates housework, has long lies at weekends, eats takeouts and microwave meals. And leaves his stuff around the house for me to clean up. For example, if he makes sausages, he'll leave the packet on the side and the pan in the sink, presumably for me to deal with. Pre-DC, I would just have left the pan in the sink until there were no more pans for him to use, but (even with my low standards) I don't think it's fair for DC to grow up in that environment.

I know what you're thinking...WHY DO YOU ALLOW THIS? YOU NEED TO KICK THE B@#?# INTO TOUCH? There is some truth in that. However, I've tried nagging and confrontation, and sometimes we argue and sometimes I get a vague commitment to try harder in the future which is never followed through. Can't be bothered any more...I want to be a happy person. Should say, he has many good points - we have fun together, laugh together, dote on DC, he's generous and good-natured.

So AIBU to ask for any devious tips you might have to 'prod' DH in the right direction? Has anything worked for you? I thought about putting the dirty pan and empty packet on his side of the bed to 'remind' him to deal with them, but I have to sleep there too! Or, instead of taking DC downstairs at the weekend to play, encouraging 'Jump on Daddy' games until he gets out of bed. Or asking him to look after DC while I pop to the bathroom, then legging it out of the house and turning off my phone for a few hours. But these seems a bit obvious...Just wondering if anyone can suggest anything a bit subtler?

Sorry, feel better than another woman and just as endemic

he has rubbish overflowing into the floor

We do have a game of brinksmanship going on around the bins. I am inevitably the loser...And then the bag splits or I can't get it out of the bin since it is so full . Maybe I am blinking too soon? Maybe I just need to hold my nerve longer (and my nose!).

You think that op should parent him and "cut him off" not "upgrade him to a better service" what does that even mean in this context?

Parent him? no, that’s what she’s doing now by picking up his slack. I’m suggesting she stop. Give him his child 50% of the week and tell him to crack on with parenting, which includes maintaining a clean home.

By upgrade him to a better service I meant having his child. It was a poor decision to have a child with a lazy slobby man if that lazy slobby behaviour was something that would bother you after the child was born.

Maybe I am blinking too soon? Maybe I just need to hold my nerve longer (and my nose!).

Yep. You’re dealing with it before he has to. Stop doing that.

I think splitting of jobs is the only way. It's hard to cure people of untidiness. Id like to be cured of it but can't be but I am better. Constant nagging no good. Get a cleaner if you can possibly afford it even by cutting back on something else. It certainly helps with the tidy problem. Lists too.

Maybe I am blinking too soon? Maybe I just need to hold my nerve longer (and my nose!).

No, stop playing games with it. If you think he doesn't notice the rubbish, why would he notice the game? You're expensive emotional energy on this with no result. Draft up jobs and both agree which day to do them. So if he won't notice a dirty bathroom it doesn't matter, you both clean your respective bathrooms on a Saturday.

If he won't get onboard with the plan then you know all his previous platitudes about doing better were lies to fob you off.

DH is a bit messy and disorganised. It's not malicious or anything. He genuinely hasn't been taught any different. His room was a shit tip when he was young and his mum just martyred and tidied up after everyone.
What has worked really well for us was 1. Getting a dishwasher. And 2. I now say things like "will you fill the dishwasher while I make dinner" or "you tidy up while I have a shower and I'll make dinner while you have a shower"
So you do a job while he does a job, even if that job is looking after baby.

at least with his second job —to pay for the housekeeper— he won’t be around so much to mess things up win win

Well I was pretty slobby and lazy before I had kids, but I grew up and kicked my own arse into gear. Why can't men be expected to do the same?

^^
Me too! But I quickly realised it wouldn’t fly with kids in the house!

It was a poor decision to have a child with a lazy slobby man if that lazy slobby behaviour was something that would bother you after the child was born.

Mea culpa! In my defence, neither DH nor I knew much about small children or their requirements before having DC. Siblings close in age, no babies in the family, first of our friends to have them. It was a shock when we arrived home from the hospital to find he didn't have a "pause" or a "mute" button.

If he responds well to direction, and you’re invested in keeping him top-side of the patio, you’re probably just going to have to provide the direction.

You shouldn’t have to, but if you like him, it’s not the worst compromise in the world.

You could even reward him for good behaviour. Like a star chart, but he gets sausages or a wank or whatever men are interested in now Top Gear’s gone a bit shit.

It boils down to whether you think he’ll actually take on board your perspective when you bring it up or will he roll his eyes, and sulk every time you remind him he is supposed to empty the bins?

If the first then sit him down and have the conversation.
If the second- well you’ve a decision to make.

@HiddenTheRemote In my defence, neither DH nor I knew much about small children or their requirements before having DC. Siblings close in age, no babies in the family, first of our friends to have them. It was a shock when we arrived home from the hospital to find he didn't have a "pause" or a "mute" button

I fail to believe people can be so clueless. There isn’t a person alive that doesn’t realise kids are hard work. Sounds like you both should have avoided the whole thing.

Well he sounds like an over grown teenager, so threat him like one. 'The washing up and the hoovering needs done-which one do you want to do and I'll do the other? Etc. If he point blank refuses to work as a team after pointing it out then you have bigger problems.
One of the things that attracted me to my dh was that he had his own house when I met him and he kept it really clean so I had a fairly good idea what it would he like when we moved in together. I couldn't live with a slob regardless of other redeeming features. Having a clean and tidy house helps my brain function.

Have you tried just talking to him? A proper, serious chat.

• Tell him that the house is both your problem not just yours
• leaving pans for you to clean is disrespectful.
• it’s unfair on the others in the household if he doesn’t tidy after himself (You and the kids)
• leaving you to be the skivvy in the kitchen doing all his shitty washing up teaches your kids that women do the cleaning etc.
• it’s kinda funny/not that bad now but there’s a risk it escalates and in 10 years time you might end up resenting him and want a divorce. This is the most serious point and if he doesn’t react appropriately to this then he’s not that into the relationship surely?

I assume this man is one of your best friends as you married him so talk to him, and tell him he must listen. If he cares, he’ll change.

Lazy slob man + clueless about the reality of children = great idea to start a family....

Well what's done is done now OP. Doubt he'll change. Either put up or kick him out.

Natural consequences, husband had habit of forgetting to put stuff away, or leaving his stuff on my dressing table 'for a minute' e.g a bill, or something to out away. It was never a minute 😡. Nagging didn't work. I dealt with it as it was easier. Nothing changed. I stopped. I started returning the stuff to his bedside table Every. Single. Time. However petty it seemed it would go back to him. Calmly and without any nagging at all. He now deals with his stuff and I like him better for it!

And btw it's NOT your job to organise him-your only 'job', if any- is to show him what you WON'T put up with.

Ok OP

I'm with you on this one. Dh was abit the same and I had to really just not do some stuff and then go a bit ape when it wasn't done.

To answer the question as to why men doing adapt as readily when kids come along? I kind of think there's a big hormonal piece of the puzzle here. Women are programmed to nurture their own child, it's an almost overwhelming need. It's why a lot of pregnant women go a bit nesty. So for us its starting when we are pregnant. By the time the kid is 1, we've basically transitioned into a functioning parent. Imho for men it takes a bit longer. They need to actually have true responsibility for that child.

My DH it only really kicked in more a bit after I stopped breastfeeding (so actually feeding the child became a more shared responsibility) and I returned to work so DH had to get DS dressed and get him to the cm each morning with the right stuff etc.

He's improved steadily ever since and now cooks at least twice a week, does the washing, does far more cleaning and tidying than ever before. He has also done bouts of shopping for the kids clothes etc,a previously unimaginable victory.

If you can afford it ,maybe hire a cleaner? If not ,break down chores into manageable segments i e W/E he hoovers ,you mop .Washing in W/M out into tumble drier .No ironing! Quick easy meals (slow cookers are good ).Jacket potatoes with tuna and salad . A couple of take outs if you can . Tell him you want to have a 50/50 arrangement with him ,which includes parenting and fun bits as well as tidying up (not so much fun ,but necessary!)

I'm quite lazy/slobby - but I do care about DH and I don't like him feeling like I'm making a burden on him.

Have you tried having a frank discussion where you point out you're carrying the majority of the load and he's not pulling his weight which is hurtful to you?

It would help to figure out:

1. if he just doesn't care - ie, he thinks you'll pick up his slack and that's absolutely OK with him, as long as he doesn't have to do it?

1. if he thinks, as "the mum" "the woman" "a SAHM/part time worker/earning less" or "you being a tidier person than him" that it's your job/responsibility or you like doing it so it's not a burden to you therefore he doesn't actually have to and/or him going to work is his contribution and is totally equal to everything you're doing?

1. if he thinks that the way he's being is completely fine and what you're doing is unnecessary, that it would be absolutely fine if you both acted the way he did?

1. if he knows it's bad, wants to change and makes genuine attempts to change but always seems to slip back into bad habits and doesn't understand why?

Because if it's 1 - just fucking leave because he has no respect for you and you are living in a lie of a relationship (sorry to be blunt). This is not a partnership, you will never be equal. As a first step your partner needs to feel compassion for you. To lump a shit ton of extra work your way and not actually care is beyond awful. You are supposed to be with somebody who makes your life better, not worse.

If it's 2 - he's bloody clueless - this would take a hell of a lot of unpicking, but it could go one of two ways. It could be as simple as you saying look, this set up where you work and I'm somehow responsible for everything else (or even we both work and I'm also responsible for all the adulting) isn't working for me. I'm exhausted, I'm resentful, let's change things. Then you figure out a plan (together) and you reevaluate (together) how it's going, regularly. You need to be brutally honest about how shit you're feeling and how much you feel you're carrying him. Make him read the blog post called "My wife left because I left dishes by the sink". Or the comic called "You should've asked" where she points out that when you get promoted to manager at work, you no longer have to ALSO DO ALL THE SHIT YOU ARE MANAGING. You just tell other people to do it. Because that, in fact, is a job in itself.

The other possibility with 2 is that his mindset is incredibly ingrained (e.g. cultural/family history) and he will never ever recognise anything that you do as matching up to anything he does. I hope it's not that! That's about as bad as scenario 1, and is genuine LTB territory because it will never get better. You cannot reason/empath your way out of that kind of mindset.

If it's 3... he probably just needs a kick up the bum/wake up call, really. This is probably the nudging scenario you're hoping for. To change this one would most likely involve explaining the long term implications of every single decision you make (which sounds fairly exhausting) and then hoping that he eventually agrees with you and/or deciding that actually, he's right, and it doesn't REALLY matter if DC eat junk food every day, go to bed late, skip their shower, get babysat by TV for hours so you can have a lie in (or whatever other thing). If you find you cannot argue logically against something, but it still feels wrong check whether you're actually comfortable stating what is important to you and expecting him to care about it, because he should, that's part of being in a partnership and caring about somebody, prioritising things which are important to them even if they are not personally your own interests. Be careful not to mistake him not caring about things which are important to you (back to explanation 1) for him not having realised they are important to you (honestly? That's pretty hurtful/1 territory as well, he ought to know you pretty well by now, but just in case you want to give him the benefit of the doubt.) This whole endeavour would probably involve a heart to heart about how you know things were different before but it's different now because DC are here and he doesn't seem to have adapted to that and now it's uneven and you want him to understand - and he needs to actually be willing to listen and discuss and engage with what he sees your new priorities are.

If it's 4, again, sorry, be careful you're not seeing scenario 1 through rose tinted glasses and it's all excuses or platitudes or him not really trying very hard because he doesn't really think it matters, but if in general he does seem to understand, listen, care and feel guilty about the way he is treating you (because him recognising that it's not just a lack of action on his part but an actual fuck-you towards you is important) BUT he cannot get his shit together and it's literally like he is trying to hold it in a string bag, consider the possibility of something like undiagnosed ADHD. It's uncommon, but it's not completely rare and if in general he is somebody who is disorganised, can be lazy, loses things, is likely to be late, struggles with motivation unless there is a deadline 30 minutes away or somebody standing behind him cracking a whip, it's not even especially unlikely.

In any (fixable/workable) scenario (ie, not 1, not 2.2) you need some things to move forward:

• An actual plan with action points, not vague "I'll do better at this" promises but actual concrete things e.g. "I will get up by 9 at the weekends" "I will give you a lie in on Sunday" "I will not leave the kitchen a tip after I use it" "We'll create a rota for chores and stick to it". Whatever. Make it stupid - add silly forfeits or competition or prizes, if you want to make it fun.

• An actual set out method for HOW you're going to do those action points. You can create these individually if you want - you probably don't need to be involved in the decision about how he's going to wake himself up at 9am. You also need to work out how you'll deal with it if it doesn't happen - for example - it might seem petty, but for things like the sausage packet and pan - I do this - DH now just comes in and says "You left the pan on the side by the way" and I'll say "Oh! Sorry! I forgot!" and go and deal with it.

• Room to discuss and feed back about which parts of the plan are working and not working, without feeling attacked. Something DH accidentally found worked was that when he said to me "Hey, it's really important to me that the counter in the kitchen is left clean" I was much more likely to take that on board and remember and be motivated to try and keep it clean, than when he said things like "Aaaaaaargh why have you left all this crap in here??" or complained about having had to clean for ages.

Sorry that ended up so long

So you both cook at night? Would one cooking - the other one clearing up work?

I'd sit him down and split the jobs. Tell him it's non-negotiable if you want family life, that you're feeling like a skivvy and it's not continuing.

Speaking as someone who was once exactly like the OP's DH, I knew it would be unacceptable once we had kids, and put off having kids until I was ready to change. Then we had kids and I changed. So men CAN make this change. (I didn't totally reinvent myself - just the same sort of "just enough" improvement the OP made!)

Would your workload go up or down if he moved out?

@BertieBotts your plan is amazing! Love it. Wish I could have read it ten years ago. Lol