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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
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wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 11/06/2020 12:42

@JellyFishSquish

I liked kitten's "Aggressively Clueless". That's what I'm seeing.

Why does someone start a thread that tries to argue against JKR's statement and or tweets while admitting to a poor understanding of the issue (and language)?

They're arguing against something a woman has thought about and written about, without understanding the issues or language...

I'd bet my packed lunch the poster is a man, come to share his wisdom with the stupid mummies.

merrymouse · 11/06/2020 12:42

The problem is a law which is super easy to exploit by men who are not trans but who want access to single sex spaces.

I agree - this is about legislation and public policy.

I don't agree that everyone has an intrinsic gender identity, but I also don't agree that everyone has an eternal soul. I don't have to agree with anyone.

The problem is that changes are being made that affect women's rights, women's services and women's protections, but women who try to discuss the issue are accused of transphobia.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 12:43

I can't find that thread either, if anyone can would they mind posting it? OP won't read it but it would be useful to have on hand for those who will.

thetoddleratemyhomework · 11/06/2020 12:44

No, OP you don't have to be qualified or informed to ask questions. But you should be slightly better informed before you try to post a response to JK Rowling. I mean, do you usually just write essays that are informed by no research whatsoever and expect plaudits?!

donquixotedelamancha · 11/06/2020 12:44

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions, but is of major significance to a transperson.

That's true but it is not those common interactions that feminist are concerned with. I think everyone here would support a trans person's right to dress, act and describe themselves how they wish and would be respectful towards that person.

The issue is in those situations where sex does matter. The single sex exemptions to the EA exist for a reason. Feminist oppose the idea that any man can self identify as a woman and then have access to changing facilities, sports, prisions, refuges etc. That's the nub of this issue.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 12:44

The break it down for me thread I mean.

lottiegarbanzo · 11/06/2020 12:45

JK tried for the reasonable debate and was met by ridicule and vile abuse. That shows who is what sex very clearly.

Spot on. Vindictiveness is such a male give-away.

Aesopfable · 11/06/2020 12:46

@ShebaShimmyShake

Actual transwomen aren't the problem. The problem is a complete erosion of women's protections that leave them open to attacks by predatory men who pretend to be transwomen. When "woman" means literally any bearded, penised, testicled person full of testosterone who says "I feel female", that's what happens.
Transwomen are still men whether you think they are pretending or not. I am still entitled to privacy and dignity, my daughters are still entitled to have boundaries and not be told they must get undressed in front of men, my athletic niece is still entitled to compete only against females and not have her sport destroyed by men, who have all the advantages of male biology, who call themselves women.
alittlelower · 11/06/2020 12:46

You haven't addressed any of the issues that JK Rowling raised though, have you? You've just ignored all the impacts on women. By dong so, you've just helped to illustrate why there are women complaining that the current iteration of this movement is inherently misogynistic.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 12:46

""How airplane engines work", by me, person who's never seen the inside of one in my life.

I'm off to post my thoughts on the above on a forum for professional pilots, which I'm sure will be met with appreciation and endless patience even when I end with "And it doesn't matter if it stops working midair anyway, except to people who aren't pilots".

BigGee · 11/06/2020 12:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BatShite · 11/06/2020 12:48

You seem to be under the impression that a transwman/transman is a post operative transsexual (or someone seeking treatments for sea dysphoria)? This is not the case.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/06/2020 12:48

You are legally prohibited from discriminating on the grounds of religion. How will Muslim and orthodox Jewish women access changing rooms, swimming pools etc. if a male can self identify their way into women only spaces /sessions.

Why are their legal rights suddenly unimportant?

ShebaShimmyShake · 11/06/2020 12:49

@lottiegarbanzo

JK tried for the reasonable debate and was met by ridicule and vile abuse. That shows who is what sex very clearly.

Spot on. Vindictiveness is such a male give-away.

More explicitly, when your response to a woman who disagrees with you is to tell her to suck or choke on your dick, it's a fair bet that you are not female, and don't even feel like one. Even if you describe it as a lady dick. Quite the ladies, those are.
JellyFishSquish · 11/06/2020 12:49

I feel there is something off, HJFT, that's all.

First you say: J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect

And then you say "I only said sex is irrelevant because my vocabulary is weak" and do not know what a TRA is. Really?

Sounding a bit off, is all. Is the OP your own words? Or is it just me?

Beachcomber · 11/06/2020 12:49

So @Hjft do you agree that you just shot your entire position in the foot when you argued (to women on a feminist chat thread) that sexism is of great importance to the ideology you are defending?

Michelleoftheresistance · 11/06/2020 12:49

The problem is a law which is super easy to exploit by men who are not trans but who want access to single sex spaces.

It is important to remember that Karen White is trans. Karen White is a TW, and had the full protection of identification and recognition of gender identity.

Due to this, White was placed on a locked women's mental health unit where White raped a woman multiple times so severely that her injuries meant she may not be able to have children.

Due to this, White was imprisoned while awaiting trial for this - and was placed according to current policy, respecting White's self identity, in a women's prison. White was later convicted of sexually assaulting two women prisoners while awaiting the trial for rape.

White would probably not find their crime history a barrier to gaining a GRC if they do not already possess one.

RuffleCrow · 11/06/2020 12:50

I'm sure she's been waiting on tenterhooks for your nonsensical response op Hmm

It was very thoughtful of you to explain it to her in 'language she could understand' though Grin

Dfod

Bodoni · 11/06/2020 12:50

Break it down for me - you mean this one?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

CatandtheFiddle · 11/06/2020 12:51

And let's not just make this about toilets or changing cubicles

No let's not. Let's go to the absolutely fundamental thing in this debate:

Men are demanding that women accept a fundamental change to the definition of what it is to be a woman, to be female.

This is what is unacceptable: compelled belief, compelled speech, and a kind of enslavement - once again - to patriarchy "Adam's rib."

DrBlackbird · 11/06/2020 12:52

Some PP seem to be veering into attacks on the OP. There are many great comments here articulating the views and sentiments of women with many important salient and points being made. It doesn't have to turn into an ad hominem argument.

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 12:52

I'd initially missed "about the subtitles"...

Hjft · 11/06/2020 12:53

@donquixotedelamancha

Not sure what a TW and a TRA is.

TW is transwoman (for the lurkers this can range from a man who simply says they are a woman to a transsexual who has had reassignment surgery and has a GRC).

TRA is a trans rights activist. It doesn't mean transsexuals who advocate for equal rights or oppose mistreatment. It specifically means those who have Genderist beliefs that humans have an objective Gender and who seek to change the law to remove the single sex protections of the equality act.

Not a TRA.

I'm just a person 'born male' who has suffered low self esteem, depression and gender dysphoria for over 50 years. I've had a diagnosis of being transexual for over 6 years but because of my own cowardice and fear of oppression i'm only just able to admit it and let people know.

The fear of oppression was much more debilitating that the reality of being honest. Friends and neighbours have been unbelievably supportive. My biggest barrier is still my own internal prejudice and lack of language to describe my reality.

I am not a man. I am not a woman. So I must be a TW!
Is that what you'd say. Does that make me your enemy?

OP posts:
TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 12:53

Thanks, Bodoni!

Tavannach · 11/06/2020 12:53

This article 'The Death of Women's Sports', chimes with me:

www.t-nation.com/opinion/trans-athletes-the-death-of-womens-sports

I have some sympathy with transpeople but empathy for women's reservations is the only way forward.

The hate attacks on JK Rowling, who clearly articulates what I feel, are totally unacceptable and cause me to be disinclined to engage eith any denate.

A response to JK Rowling