A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

They don't want their female followers in particular to read Rowling's update because then they might feel empathy for her experiences, which women being groomed by TRAs have been steered away from. The moment you see the angry male people behaving in a sexually threatening way to women aspect of the issue it tends to clarify your position quite a bit.

People who're confident in the rightness of their argument don't try to prevent anyone from seeing the counterargument. I want people to see how TRAs are talking to Rowling right now, because it proves that women who're concerned about their behavior have been right about them all along.

Please find the link to JK Rowling's update in the original posting.

I for one am not stifling debate, even if I don't have the right words all the time.

Oh, so you're admitting that you're a TRA, since that's who that post was referring to? Kind of you to do so.

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions

Er, no, not for most women.

If you're a woman and have never encountered being treated as the "lesser" or "weaker" sex, then you are very very fortunate.

If you're a man, then you Just.Do.Not.Get.It. Like 95% of the rest of your sex.

I'm extremely privilege white western woman, of a class which is used to running the world. I am still regularly treated "as a woman" in that I am talked over, threatened subtly with violence (just the other day followed in broad daylight coming back from my morning run), paid less, subject to patronising comments - it's been over 60 years of this, and it's exhausting.

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant for most interactions, but is of major significance to a transperson

That is absolutely scandalous. For the most intimate and fundamental of interactions, it's essential that I know whether someone is male or female.

Are you seriously suggesting that I, as a heterosexual woman, should have to potentially find myself in an intimate situation with a female who's 'presenting' as a man?

@Hjft

Now that we've established that you are arguing that the existence of sexism is of major significance to transgenderism perhaps you can now tell us why you think that is acceptable?

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

If you really are trying to find a mutual understanding have you spoken to TW and TRAs about our concerns? Have you considered any of our fears?

Because otherwise I can't believe you really want a mutual understanding.

Not sure what a TW and a TRA is.

This thread is me trying to listen, and there are many voices here. Already I have learned that my vocabulary is weak.

I don't think JK Rowling is conflating sex and gender. She is making the point that the definition of a woman in law at the moment is based on biological sex. If a gender recognition law allowing self-ID is brought in, then this definition will de facto change to one of gender. There is a debate that needs to be had about what that does to women's rights and protections. Women are discriminated against on the basis of their biology. If the law no longer recognises that as the basis of womanhood and anybody can identify as a woman, then how can women organise and protect themselves against that discrimination?

Transpeople aren't the problem as far as I can see. The problem is a law which is super easy to exploit by men who are not trans but who want access to single sex spaces.

A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

And how do you tell, exactly?

I liked kitten's "Aggressively Clueless". That's what I'm seeing.

Why does someone start a thread that tries to argue against JKR's statement and or tweets while admitting to a poor understanding of the issue (and language)?

So OP is saying men and women should be treated differently in social interactions?

Wonderful, so sexism is totally cool according to OP.

Thank for clearing that up, we can all stop fighting for equality now!

@TheProdigalKittensReturn

Oh, so you're admitting that you're a TRA, since that's who that post was referring to? Kind of you to do so.

What is a TRA? Again my language is letting me down so I'm at a disadvantage.

JKRowling states that she is deeply concerned about trans activism (ie the ones who threaten violence - and aren't we all) but she does not go nearly as far as the stance taken by those who frequent MN "Feminism" Chat about men, penises, trans people and sexuality and she does also state and I would like to give this emphasis:

"I managed to escape my first violent marriage with some difficulty, but I’m now married to a truly good and principled man, safe and secure in ways I never in a million years expected to be. However, the scars left by violence and sexual assault don’t disappear, no matter how loved you are, and no matter how much money you’ve made. My perennial jumpiness is a family joke – and even I know it’s funny – but I pray my daughters never have the same reasons I do for hating sudden loud noises, or finding people behind me when I haven’t heard them approaching.
If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship. I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth, because I too have known moments of blind fear when I realised that the only thing keeping me alive was the shaky self-restraint of my attacker.I believe the majority of trans-identified people not only pose zero threat to others, but are vulnerable for all the reasons I’ve outlined.
Trans people need and deserve protection. Like women, they’re most likely to be killed by sexual partners. Trans women who work in the sex industry, particularly trans women of colour, are at particular risk. Like every other domestic abuse and sexual assault survivor I know, I feel nothing but empathy and solidarity with trans women who’ve been abused by men.So I want trans women to be safe.
At the same time, I do not want to make natal girls and women less safe. When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman – and, as I’ve said, gender confirmation certificates may now be granted without any need for surgery or hormones – then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside. That is the simple truth.
[...] The one thing that gives me hope is that the women who can protest and organise, are doing so, and they have some truly decent men and trans people alongside them"

I think the extremist feminists on mumsnet are throwing out the baby with the bath water because they lack the moderation expressed by JFRowling - whether any of us agree with her in part or whole or not there is moderation there - and we need more measured discussion - the extreme feminists jump on any sort of measured discussion or questioning on MN and they have to stop doing it.

In fact, I think that the extremists feminists on MN are so extreme and unhelpful, some may well in fact be trans activists (ie the extreme ones) bots trying to stop MN discussion generally.

The idea that sex is irrelevant in most interactions is laughable. Is this how particularly clueless men see things? Even if you can't see the other person, like online, and don't know their sex, it's still influencing how you act.

Ok, that's nice and supportive and kind OP.

Now what would you like to do with all the female people who will no longer be able to use female spaces?

They'll include a disproportionate number of female people not high in privilege and who already have struggles to access society, and their barriers will be to access things like health care, hospital wards, refuges, public toilets, gyms and leisure or sports, support groups (particularly if they're unlucky enough to be homosexual), and to be able to go to school during a period.

What would you like to do with those people, OP? Since you're interested in kindness, and social justice and equality?

There's a thing called Google, OP, perhaps you could make use of it.

"I only said sex is irrelevant because my vocabulary is weak" is at least original, OP!
I'll remember that one.

I don't think you can tag MNHQ generally but if they look at this thread, and if it goes the way I suspect - please could you not delete the whole thread? There are some really good posts here I'd love to refer back to.

In normal life, whether someone is biologically male or female is irrelevant
Really? You are insulting everyone's intelligence. You obviously have no understanding or appreciation of VAWG. And yet I bet you retweeted your 'Me Too' hashtags and said how awful it was that women were sexually assaulted; constantly harrassed; paid less; that two women per week were killed by their partners. How do we know those stats? How do men know who to kill? How do bosses know who to pay less? How do men know who to post death threats to on Twitter? How do they know who to threaten with rape and 'suck their dick' quotes (termed 'girly' or otherwise) ?
Yeah, it's a mystery ... or everyone knows the difference between men and women.

Not sure what a TW and a TRA is.

TW is transwoman (for the lurkers this can range from a man who simply says they are a woman to a transsexual who has had reassignment surgery and has a GRC).

TRA is a trans rights activist. It doesn't mean transsexuals who advocate for equal rights or oppose mistreatment. It specifically means those who have Genderist beliefs that humans have an objective Gender and who seek to change the law to remove the single sex protections of the equality act.

@JellyFishSquish

I liked kitten's "Aggressively Clueless". That's what I'm seeing.

Why does someone start a thread that tries to argue against JKR's statement and or tweets while admitting to a poor understanding of the issue (and language)?

Because I want to understand. Do I have to be qualified in some way before I can ask questions?

What kinds of 'extremism' are we talking about here on MN?

KettlePolly Transwomen commit crime at the same rate as other men. Or are you suggesting that all those Transwomen who have entered women’s single sex spaces to assault women and girls, for voyeurism, or to act out their fetish are not real Transwomen?

I have to note that the vocabulary level seems to change from post to post.

Please don't delete any of the Rowling threads, MNHQ, they're too important.

HJFT

If you genuinely want to learn, please go to the Feminist Chat board and read the post entitled "Break It Down For Me". Start there. Although for some reason I can't find it to add the link. It hasn't been deleted, has it?

Actual transwomen aren't the problem. The problem is a complete erosion of women's protections that leave them open to attacks by predatory men who pretend to be transwomen. When "woman" means literally any bearded, penised, testicled person full of testosterone who says "I feel female", that's what happens.