A response to JK Rowling

[Hjft]

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

• [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8418253/Boris-Johnson-drops-plans-make-gender-change-easier.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8418463/NHS-U-turns-controversial-puberty-blocking-drugs-transgender-teens.html

I know people don't generally like the mail but I found these interesting.

I wonder if OP has actually read all the replies?

So, in the couple of days since I check this thread the OP has not returned and Chocolate's determined fingers in ears approach has resulted, not in winning people over, but in a drop of support for the OP's position by 1%. Good job?

The public isn't buying this, and the "well then you're a big meanie" approach isn't working any more. Trans people are not the only people whose rights matter.

I don't know exactly what the US Supreme Court decision means yet but this is how Vox reads it.

www.vox.com/identities/2020/6/15/21291542/supreme-court-trans-people-rights-discrimination-hope-again

Rowling is included in the list of terrible things happening to trans rights, of course.

I don’t think trans people should be fired on the sole basis of being trans so that’s a good ruling.

Wasn’t the Stephens’ case about Stephens, a Male transitionerr, wanting to switch to wearing the work’s formal dress code for female people though? Because there is no mention of that in the above article.

Stephens was a long term employee at a funeral home, so it’s somewhat understandable that the funeral director didn’t want a staff member switching dress codes. Attending to a recently bereaved family isn’t the appropriate time to be asserting your personal identity through clothing choices, whatever that identity happens to be.

Nor do I.

Here:

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-court-says-gay-transgender-workers-are-protected-by-federal-law-forbidding-discrimination-on-the-basis-of-sex/2020/06/15/2211d5a4-655b-11ea-acca-80c22bbee96f_story.html

I really believe that the overwhelming majority of people here, and gender critical people here, understand full well that trans people absolutely must be able to live in the way that is authentic to them without suffering hatred, persecution, violence or discrimination. We just think it should be a bit harder than saying "I'm a woman" before intact male people gain full access to women's spaces, services and representative bodies.

No @ShebaShimmyShake I genuine believe that whilst Trans should be free to live the life they want, some women’s spaces should remain open to only natal women.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I can’t see any reason that a person can’t dress as the gender they want at work, even at a funeral home.

I recently planned a funeral for my brother and promise you I could give two shits what the people working at the funeral home were wearing as long as they were in professional attire. It’s not like she was making a costume change mid funeral.

@ExploringReality

No *@ShebaShimmyShake* I genuine believe that whilst Trans should be free to live the life they want, some women’s spaces should remain open to only natal women.

Definitely

[quote HannaYeah]@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I can’t see any reason that a person can’t dress as the gender they want at work, even at a funeral home.

I recently planned a funeral for my brother and promise you I could give two shits what the people working at the funeral home were wearing as long as they were in professional attire. It’s not like she was making a costume change mid funeral.[/quote]
When I went to make arrangements for my mother’s funeral I would have felt the opposite to you Hannah. It is a time when people are at a very vulnerable state. Imagine having to deal with a funeral director’s indignity that they would be misgendered by anyone, eg people with dementia, children.

I remember reading that case and thinking that Stephens still looked very much as they did as a male.

That’s very kind of you Hanna
Sorry to hear about your brother

Autogynephilia and/or transvestic paraphilia* is often comorbid with other paraphilias.
I wouldn’t personally wouldn’t have wanted to see anything that even remotely resembled a sexual fetish when dealing with the premature ovarian cancer death of my beloved mother, bearing in mind that funeral staff wash and dress the dead as part of the preparation process as well as attend the funeral service itself.
My mother had a horribly undignified death full of tubes, wild eyed with pain, followed by a full post mortem and I absolutely needed what was left of her body to be treated with gentle dignity by funeral staff for the sake of my own mental health.

www.science.gov/topicpages/p/paraphilias

Stephens’ former boss clearly thought it inappropriate too.
Still not read anything about that aspect of court case in the reports about the ruling tho!

*talking theoretically of course, MNHQ.

See, I don't mind in the context of a funeral home but appreciate it's different for other people. It's women's safe spaces I worry about: refuges, changing rooms, toilets, sport.

All transpeople should be able to live and work free from discrimination. They should be protected from male violence. This issue is that self-ID essentially removes those safe spaces for women. We've already seen it with prison and refuge sexual attacks by supposed trans women. We've already seen the likes of Yaniv ruining several people's livelihoods by suing them for refusing the wax male body parts. That is anti-women and thus not conducive to equality.

I do completely understand what you are saying. Though I wrote what I did, I cannot honestly say how I would feel at the funeral home. Was just thinking that I might not have even processed it having been in such a robot state already anyway.

I’m so sorry for the loss of your mother. I do think we all have a right to feel as we do and our wishes should be respected regarding who we want to deal with when it comes to something so personal as a funeral.

I buy pizza from a place where one of the workers is trans. Also previously worked with a woman I believed to be trans, many years ago. These are almost my only experiences with trans people and they’ve been kind and professional. Beyond that, I just don’t/didn’t care what people do (quietly) and I also don’t think mental health issues that don’t impede job performance should be cause for dismissal.

I do understand that a small business like a funeral home might suffer financial loss as a result of employing a trans person due to the sensitivity and general attitudes though and I’m not sure how how that could be mitigated. Anyway, despite the laws discrimination in hiring is alive and while in the US with respect to all other protected classes, so I don’t imagine this will make much practical difference.

@acatcalledjohn

I agree strongly re: safe spaces.

The waxing thing is mind blowing.

I believe anyone providing personal non-medical service that require them to physically touch a person should have a right to deny service to anyone else without giving a reason. I know that means there will be all kinds of discrimination. But I don’t actually want someone touch my hair, face, body that does not want to do so! Who would except a person intent on making another person uncomfortable?

Was just thinking that I might not have even processed it having been in such a robot state already anyway. I am sorry for your loss too Hanna. And I totally get that feeling where it doesn’t even register at that time. I get where you are coming from.

I too have no problem with how a person presents in their work usually. If they are professional and it is not procedure where sex matters, I probably will not even think anything past registering that they are transgender. Because, to me it shouldn’t matter. Except worrying that I might misgender them and I try not to do that.

I buy pizza from a place where one of the workers is trans.

Big difference between serving pizza and washing your dead ma’s naked body though!

I

This is about finding understanding.

Ok @Hjft how about understanding why women have deeply ingrained fears of men and their ability to harm them? 2 to 3 women are murdered a week by men. In law, only men can rape. Considering violence and sex crimes are committed overwhelmingly by men, it's only women who are worse off in these debates.

Or understanding the fact that no amount of make up/name changing/feminine clothing makes you a woman, and therefore, leaves you completely unable to have an authentic experience of womanhood. Ironically, the closest you'll come to that is by experiencing male violence (one of the reasons why women want their sex segrated spaces to remain so). Essentially, you fear male violence but also have the privilege of likely being much more able to physically defend yourself. So why do you insist on removing our protection that exists in the form of our own spaces? Why does validating your feelings matter more that our physical safety and that of our daughters'? *

• A caveat to that is, of course, male victims of male violence deserve absolutely no victim blaming and that's not what is meant by the statement above.

Or how about understanding that male violence is committed at the same rate even when the male identifies as a woman. We are not showing bigoted hatred towards transwomen, but we do have extremely valid fears about men. It is unfortunate that transwoman often completely reject definitions of sex because it doesn't suit them but you need to understand the harm that causes women.

How about understanding that you benefit from male privilege every single day whereas women's rights have been desperately fought for. Nothing is automatically granted to us while things are automatically taken away.

How about understanding that the violence and misogyny coming from TRAs only cements our beliefs and proves them right. Only yesterday there was a transwoman on these boards shouting I AM A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN AND WILL USE WOMEN'S SPACES REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU THINK. Yes, they shouted like that and yes, they used those words. We are consistently told by men that we don't matter. That our safety doesn't matter and that our rights don't matter. So I have more interest in being an ally to women who have suffered at the hands of men and protecting our spaces. Having been on the receiving end of an ex's violence, I have a very valid right to say no. I do not consent to penises being present in our spaces, sports, scholarships etc. It is very telling that men want to violate this consent.

Stop using us for selfish validation. Acknowledge that we are losing rights, especially the right to give consent or refuse it. Then maybe we'll listen.

Is there a petition supporting JK somewhere that I can sign? So tired of women's voices being silenced. Why is being a woman suddenly only considered in light of the difficulties it provokes for Trans people? Very tired of people thinking they can shame women.

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong

I buy pizza from a place where one of the workers is trans.

Big difference between serving pizza and washing your dead ma’s naked body though!

I

Yes, absolutely!

I really believe that the overwhelming majority of people here, and gender critical people here, understand full well that trans people absolutely must be able to live in the way that is authentic to them without suffering hatred, persecution, violence or discrimination. We just think it should be a bit harder than saying "I'm a woman" before intact male people gain full access to women's spaces, services and representative bodies

This.

If we lose the clear definition of "woman" as a political category, we stand in danger of losing our specific rights.

We just think it should be a bit harder than saying "I'm a woman" before intact male people gain full access to women's spaces, services and representative bodies

No, I think that's the mainstream view rather than the average FWR view. Here there are a lot of women who've spent years exploring the issues and coming to a more hard-line position on exactly who is entitled to claim ownership of the ontological category 'woman'.

I don't mind how people dress or what name they want to be called; I think we'd reduce the incidence of dysphoria in males if men put in the necessary legwork to 'expand the bandwidth of masculinity'. But letting them claim "woman"? No. They have to redefine it to make it include them, and their redefinition excludes many women and girls, contributing to increased dysphoria in females.

I'm all for trans people having the same rights as everyone else, but the "right" to kick me out of the woman club to make room for themselves isn't a right at all, it's an abuse borne of their privilege.

I'm afraid I'm one of those people Tyro talks about. I used to be on the side of being accepting and considerate, and I expected acceptance and consideration in return. That was because I genuinely believed that trans people walked the walk, as well as talking the talk. I believed they had treatments, hormone and surgical, and therefore neutralised the risk that their male bodies would harm my female body. The day I learned that wasn't true and that actually some of them are getting a damn fine boner from barging into my changing rooms and loos, I closed my heart. As the OP clearly stated in various posts, it is ALL about the trans wants. They want in, and we have to move over the accommodate them or leave if we're not comfortable. Women have to leave women's spaces if we don't want to share them with penises. Once you've grasped that, there's no going back.

The day I learned that wasn't true and that actually some of them are getting a damn fine boner from barging into my changing rooms and loos, I closed my heart.

This is just it. It's one thing being accepting and considerate towards men who reject masculinity (because they're doing their bit to dismantle gender as a mechanism of oppression). But then you realise that what they're actually doing - expecting women to budge up and nurture and be human shields and abandon our rights (and our understanding of ourselves) in order to massage their hurt feelings - isn't a rejection of masculinity at all. It's standard male socialisation, it's part of the problem, it's anti-women and anti-feminist.