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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
sleepydragons · 11/06/2020 21:38

@Deadringer

Someone mentioned the magic sorting hat earlier. Wouldn't it be amazing if we had one at every women's loo, you have to put it on your head before you enter, and it sorts everyone out by shouting WOMAN! TRANSWOMAN! TRANSMAN! PREDATORY ABUSER! We could use it for sports and changing rooms too. But we don't, so single sex is safest for women and girls.
I wonder if GDPR applies to sorting hats.... !
BarbieandKenBruce · 11/06/2020 21:47

@Fanthorpe It's an interesting debate.
Do I believe how boys are raised could change a patriarchal society? Yes
Do I think it would eliminate male violence? No

backseatcookers · 11/06/2020 21:53

I've learned so much on this thread thanks to the infinite wisdom of posters like @printingworksheets.

Turns out us women are allowed to vote (I know right, who knew?!) and all we need to do do is stop thinking about toilets and simply focus on our very important 'female role' of teaching males not to be violent. After all, it's our responsibility.

Always our fault. Always our problem to fix. Always our burden.

Women, you have one job - just be nice. Oh actually, two jobs - teach men how to be nice too.

Happy 2020. Ffs.

BarbieandKenBruce · 11/06/2020 22:06

@backseatcookers

This needs as much focus as the toilet situation.

This needs as much focus as the toilet situation.

This needs as much focus as the toilet situation.

I could SCREAM

backseatcookers · 11/06/2020 22:18

I could SCREAM

Now now @BarbieandKenBruce you know that will only get us called hysterical...

Honestly, it's like reading a parody isn't it. Except it's real thoughts of real people.

At least old school misogynist are chauvinist arseholes who know they hate women and just don't care.

I don't know how to deal with the wide eyed 'can't we all just be nice' women haters (including some women obviously) as they are either wilfully ignorant or knowingly goady.

I also hate that I have mentioned on a number of threads my experience as a rape victim and never had someone who disagrees with my other points acknowledge it let alone say anything remotely empathetic.

I hate myself for mentioning it every time as it's like an extra slap in the face.

MaleficentsCrow · 11/06/2020 22:23

Women teach your children right
Women move over and give us your rights
Women let us in your spaces
Women do this
Women do that
Women shut up
Women behave
Women be silent
Women are not Women
Women be gone.......

backseatcookers · 11/06/2020 22:24

@MaleficentsCrow

This. And more infuriating demand underpinning them all:

Women... be nice.

Melia100 · 11/06/2020 22:31

Cannot believe I woke up to a variation on 'it's the mother's what make the boys violent, so basically it's all your fault if one comes along and rapes you in our lovely mixed loos. Maybe focus on being a mummy and not on women's rights!'

And the person posting above shite believes it's 'progressive'. Mate, any way you find to tell women to shut up and get back in the kitchen is the opposite of progressive.

Melia100 · 11/06/2020 22:32

At least old school misogynist are chauvinist arseholes who know they hate women and just don't care

At this point, they are almost a relief from the gaslighters. That's how mired 2020 is in the mud of misogyny.

Dragongirl10 · 11/06/2020 22:35

It just keeps coming back to male violence doesn’t it. That’s the root of the problem.

THIS ^^^

And NO l am NOT ok with mixed toilets.

If you have a penis you must NOT be allowed in womans spaces.

This does not make me transphobic.

MaleficentsCrow · 11/06/2020 22:35

@backseatcookers oh yes us women should be unquestionably nice. No matter how many times you beat us, we must always thank you for the beating.

Because I'm sure that's how my DV perpetrator felt, I should be corrected for my behaviour, and thankful for the punishment. 🤦🏻‍♀️

backseatcookers · 11/06/2020 22:35

At this point, they are almost a relief from the gaslighters. That's how mired 2020 is in the mud of misogyny.

So true @Melia100 and it's a gutting state of affairs for 2020 isn't it.

backseatcookers · 11/06/2020 22:39

From Harry Potter: The Prisoner of Azkaban, Aunt Marge on delinquent boys:

Actually it has nothing to do with the father, it has to do with the mother. You see it all the time with dogs. If there's something wrong with the bitch, then there's something wrong with the pup.

The idea of this scene was for us to watch open mouthed at how much of an utter cunt Aunt Marge is.

But if she was saying it on Twitter now she would just be speaking her truth as someone who believes it's always, always, always women's fault.

Thelnebriati · 11/06/2020 22:49

The love bombing has stopped, the honeymoon period is over.
We can ride it out until the 'look how nice I can be when you are compliant' phase starts again.

Deadringer · 11/06/2020 22:52

I said it on another thread, but from now on any time someone says to me that transwomen are not safe in male spaces, or transwomen are being killed every day, whether its on social media or in real life, my stock reply will be yes, you are right, it is high time something is done about male violence. Every time.

LinemanForTheCounty · 11/06/2020 22:56

Is this the fanfic section now?

LinemanForTheCounty · 11/06/2020 22:58

It's not very good, is it?

BarbieandKenBruce · 11/06/2020 23:02

@backseatcookers

I'd love to be called hysterical! That would at least imply that my womb mattered a tiny bit to who I was.

I am also a rape victim and rarely mention it in this context. I feel like it helps my viewpoint get written off for some reason. I am so sorry it happened to you and people are not acknowledging it and arguing against your right to minimise the chance of it happening again, to you or others.

The saddest part of reading JK Rowling's essay was where she spoke about her experiences of domestic violence and sexual assault and really quickly had to clarify that she wasn't doing it for sympathy. I know she was sharing that in part to explain why single sex spaces mattered to her but blimey, if you have to defend yourself against 'garnering sympathy' for rape and intimate partner abuse what are you allowed to receive sympathy for?

Maybe I'll focus on that after I've solved the toilet issue.

ginghamstarfish · 11/06/2020 23:04

Can't be arsed OP. The vast majority of us agree with JKR but we are not out there shouting and having tantrums so we are not heard. It's all a load of bollock, quite Iiterally.

backseatcookers · 11/06/2020 23:05

I'm sorry you've been through it too and even more sorry that both of us feel that raising it almost invalidates our point of view to some people rather than helping explain the potential risks we are concerned about.

I can't believe you haven't solved the toilet issue yet, you've had all evening. Women, eh? So lazy!

Winesalot · 12/06/2020 00:41

@LinemanForTheCounty

It's not very good, is it?
Really? It’s got humour, sensationalism, pull on your heart strings honesty, and violence gets a mention.

Except it is a real life. Which is why the book can’t be put down.

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 12/06/2020 07:08

@StrangeLookingParasite

I'm just speechless at the level of assurance with which the first post was made, despite the writer then admitting he knew next to nothing about quite a few relevant things.

If people would stop using those born with DSD's ( a whole 0,018% of the population, by the way), as evidence for why sex is a spectrum, it would be ...less wearying. Of that 0,018 of the population, I think nearly every one is male or female, just a slight variant thereof.
There is no spectrum of gametes; no speggs, or spergs.

Yes, that definitely indicates that this was more goady than anything else.

Also, the DSD people (am being careful not to use the word beginning with i as apparently they don't like it and prefer DSD) have mostly asked to be left out of this whole debate as their situation is totally different and not remotely related to "gender feelz". You'll get the odd one cropping up on the side of the TRAs, but mostly they don't want to get involved.

merrymouse · 12/06/2020 07:30

If i had to guess I would say that "most" people are ok with mixed toilets. They are the norm in many places. Also what about young boys being raped in male only toilets?

Printing worksheets, I don't know if you have read many threads on this board, but the general view is that unisex spaces should be available in addition to single sex provision. This is already common in many places because, as you say, it helps people caring for opposite sex children.

However this issue is being discussed now because organisations such as Stonewall have campaigned for legislation that removes the ability to provide any single sex space in any circumstance. They regard single sex provision as trans exclusionary, but also refuse to define 'trans', therefore anyone must be allowed into any space.

They haven't just campaigned for changes to legislation, they have also advised many companies, public bodes and educational institutions that these rules already exist.

You say that most people are happy to use mixed sex toilets, and you might be right. However, a significant number of woman have said that they can't use single sex facilities in some circumstances. Even if you assume these women are a minority, why are their views and feelings not important?

merrymouse · 12/06/2020 07:51

I can never believe this nonsense "accident of birth" or "born in the wrong body" that is an inflammatory unnecessary comment. and saying things like that riles activists, and it makes tolerant open minded people angry too.

The concept of being 'born in the wrong body' is a philosophical belief, because it depends on believing that some feelings and behaviours are correct for men, and some feelings and behaviours are correct for women.

I am 100% sure that over the years many people on MN have argued that religion is nonsense, particularly on threads about state funded religious schools. However, I don't think any religious organisation has ever started a twitter campaign against MN to attack their sources of revenue.

Why is it wrong to criticise a belief that many believe is fundamentally sexist, particularly on the femininism board?

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 12/06/2020 07:53

Guardian finally standing up for some women at least