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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

A response to JK Rowling

966 replies

Hjft · 11/06/2020 09:54

J.K. Rowling, like so many others, has recently been accused of transphobia and targeted for expressing some of her opinions on sex and gender. This is a very nuanced issue which many people struggle with, including members of the trans community. Assuming bigotry and shutting down debate is not the way to address these issues. Instead we should engage in reasoned debate in order to better understand the subtitles and find a way to live together with mutual respect.

On 10 June 2020 JK Rowling wrote about her reasons for speaking out on sex and gender Issues ( www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/ ) . It is a welcome calm voice in what she calls a toxic environment and I commend her bravery for standing up to the bullies. The essay explains eloquently what she believes and why she holds the opinions she does. She opens up about some very personal issues, and I hope all her detractors will read it before shouting her down.

An essay, however well written, carries a bias, and a reasonable author will recognise that bias and be willing to consider that they could be wrong. And so should the reader of an essay. By writing this essay, JK Rowling has exposed some very valid points which the other side of the debate wish to brush aside. However, she has also indicated a bias which I hope to address.

She conflates sex and gender, and she conflates the law and medicine. Firstly she worries that trans activism is ‘pushing to erode the legal definition of sex and replace it with gender’. This legal definition is for the protection of the civil rights of trans people and has no bearing on biology. Trans people still receive healthcare appropriate to their individual biological truths. Every trans person is acutely aware of their biological sex because it is incongruous with their gender. Remember when Harry Potter uses Polyjuice potion to take on the form of Goyle in ‘Chamber of secrets”. He does not stop being Harry. Now imagine if Harry had got stuck, and had to live his life with everyone believing he was Goyle. It would be intolerable for him and would likely lead to mental illness or worse. This is what it’s like for trans people, and why the law is in place to protect their right to be their authentic selves. Being Harry is ‘not a costume’.

This conflation is further illustrated when she expresses alarm that ‘A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law’. Again, this demonstrates a conflation of law and medicine. If a trans person can find relief from their gender dysphoria by permanently expressing themselves in an authentic manner then why should we expect them to accept medical intervention in order to get legal protection. Imagine you have a migraine. If sitting in a dark room with a glass of water provides you with sufficient relief, then you shouldn’t be expected to take strong pain killers or accept brain surgery. The ‘man’ she describes is not masquerading as a woman - she is living her authentic identity as a woman. The law protects her rights to do so. She is not a predator, and it should not be assumed that she is. Without these rights, her transgender status would be revealed every time she tries to hire a car, or open a bank account, and it is her safety that is in danger. A man masquerading as a woman is not able to legally get a Gender Recognition Certificate - because they are a man.

[redacted*] I hope JK Rowling’s essay will mark a turning point in the tone of these discussions, and people can start to properly address them.

  • [edited by MNHQ to remove inflammatory content - we're allowing the challenges to this section of the OP to remain]
OP posts:
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BigGee · 11/06/2020 18:54

Prodigal, if you add a candle, it counteracts the missing basket, I promise. I have two candles, cos I iz super girly simpers

ShebaShimmyShake · 11/06/2020 18:58

Sex existed and mattered and was pretty incontrovertible for men for zillions of years when it was the sole reason we couldn't vote or go to university or represent ourselves in court or decide whom to marry or inherit property. Now that there's a significant number of male-bodied people who want full recognition of womanhood through no greater action than saying they are...all of a sudden men are falling over themselves to tell us sex isn't real or it's really complicated (but luckily they're here to explain to us what a woman is).

Piss off, the lot of you.

RedDogsBeg · 11/06/2020 18:59

Equal treatment does not always equal identical treatment.

Perfectly put, how anyone is too blinkered or so lacking in intelligence not to understand this is beyond me.

CaraDune · 11/06/2020 19:01

So that's what my great aunt was doing when she had one of those hideous doll+croched dress covers for the spare toilet roll... she was trying to make sure we didn't inadvertently mis-gender the toilet. ("It's MA'AM!!!!!")

Winesalot · 11/06/2020 19:04

RazorEdge

Absolutely, we would all love to live in Utopia where everyone was safe.

However, we currently live in the most pornified era in history and an era where there is such a low successful prosecution rate for sex crimes that victims are reporting at a very low rate as well. For fuck sake, we have to have laws to prosecute men from holding cameras under women's skirts!

Why do you think that now is the time that women need to accept a person with a penis into a safe space? Why instead are we even having this discussion. Why won't gender neutral and separate female toilets do if third spaces are unacceptable?

How about, we do this and keep working on society as a whole.

TorkTorkBam · 11/06/2020 19:05

[quote RazorEdge]@TorkTorkBam that's not biology's problem, that's society's problem.

Society's behaviour is fluid and controlled by what the majority thinks. Let's focus on changing society's views, then everyone can be welcomed.[/quote]
Good point.

How about you and the other men go all out on changing your behaviour so none of the men hurt or oppress women nor are rotten to transwomen and other non-comformist men.

When you've got that sorted come and talk to us about letting men into our shower rooms.

We won't have to worry about prisons because no men will be committing violent crimes so that will all be lovely.

Have you been over to KF, Pistonheads or Datalounge to suggest they be nicer yet? Let us know how you get on with fixing society.

CaveMum · 11/06/2020 19:05

Oo, oo, have we had the “sex is a white colonialist concept” assertion yet?! I always enjoy that one!

TorkTorkBam · 11/06/2020 19:10

[quote RazorEdge]@ForgotAboutThis but society looks down on single race or single class spaces, they are held to a different standard to single sex spaces, yet it's the same thing on that it's separation based on differences. Single race spaces are seen as racist, single class spaces are seen as classist and strongly disapproved of. Why are some kinds of segregation superior to others?[/quote]
Are you suggesting that everything becomes mixed sex?

Interesting idea.

What has that got to do with men who think they are women though?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 19:12

My toilet already has a candle but it's one of those "rain" type scents so I'm not sure it's girly enough. I could try to dig up one that's more floral?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 11/06/2020 19:14

We had "they had enunuchs in India" so I think that was our "nobody understood that humans are a sexually dimorphic species until Europeans arrived and explained to them" moment for today.

CaveMum · 11/06/2020 19:18

ProdigalKitten, aww sad that I missed it. I saw a cracking retort to that argument on Twitter the other day!

BigGee · 11/06/2020 19:18

I think rain type scents qualify as girly, Prodigal. As long as it's doesn't smell of wet dog. That would unquestionably be manly.

FrippEnos · 11/06/2020 19:19

I am not a man. I am not a woman.

Sorry, but unless you are intersex you have to be one or the other. Biology and all that.

As for gender there are currently over 100 different genders.

I await deletion for stating a scientific fact.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 11/06/2020 19:20

Razor

A woman going into a men only space, worse thing that could happen = men get cross they can't play cards/smoke cigars/talk about porn in peace

A man goes into a woman only space, worse thing that could happen = a woman gets raped or even murdered

Surely you get that massive difference? Confused

And the comparison to race is so disrespectful.

And as for "the gays?"!!!.
Jesus Christ.

TorkTorkBam · 11/06/2020 19:22

JKR talked about DV and sexual assault, which led to the start of this thread by a confused TW wanting to talk to women.

Up rocks some bloke hijacking the TW thread to tell us what JKR experienced is society's problem not women's problem and so we don't need protections from men and by the way nobody knows what male and female even is. Big dollop of racism during BLM too.

I am frequently amazed at how self-centred and tone deaf these loons are.

I still love that we've been informed that we don't deserve to not have the vote, be assaulted or be oppressed. It's just society innit. So we can stop worrying our pretty little heads about it and start giving men easier access to our bodies. If it goes wrong we can blame society. Ace.

Be kind ladies. The men get ever so cross if you are difficult.

Michelleoftheresistance · 11/06/2020 19:23

Always amazing when female people say

"We have segregated spaces because of need: here they are, here is the history, here's the lived experience, here are the statistics,"

And people born male have so little ability to understand or empathise that they go "Oh my God, it's like racism!"

Ffs, no one is suggesting for a moment that all sex segregation in the UK be abandoned because that would be insane. No sex segregated prisons. No sex segregated hospitals. Who would be the winners of that and who would be the losers of that? Why?

I learned the hard way at seven years old, that being in possession of female biology in a public place made me a target, because male people are raised to believe that they are entitled to make use of female bodies, and the consent and the views of the female who's body it is has no relevance. There is the belief, no matter how deep down, that females don't have the right to say no. That females have no business denying males their entitlement.

That entitlement is loud and clear in every person born male saying to females, I want to use the space you are in, and you don't have the right to say no to me, because I am entitled.

I know you are. This is why, when born with female biology, I need single sex spaces.

endofthelinefinally · 11/06/2020 19:29

People with disorders of sexual development ( used to be called intersex many years ago) are ALWAYS either male or female.

ShebaShimmyShake · 11/06/2020 19:31

@CaveMum

Oo, oo, have we had the “sex is a white colonialist concept” assertion yet?! I always enjoy that one!
We had the "racial segregation is wrong HA HA DIDN'T SEE THAT COMING DID YOU, CONCEDE TO MY GREAT AND ORIGINAL ARGUMENT THAT ISN'T AT ALL BASED ON A FALLACIOUS AND REALLY STUPID FALSE EQUIVALENCE MWA HA HA GOT EM NOW" bullshit, does that count?
TorkTorkBam · 11/06/2020 19:32

Hey @Hjft do you feel more like a woman now a man's been here to lecture you and talk drivel over the top of you? Wink

RedDogsBeg · 11/06/2020 19:36

It's interesting that whenever you pull someone up on their shoehorning in of DSD's into the transgender debate and ask them to respect the request of people with DSD's NOT to co-opt and use them as some kind of slam-dunk gotcha the people doing it never, ever, retract or apologise, and yet they are the ones screaming "be kind/respectful", seems their kindness and respect is in very limited quantities.

I won't hold my breath waiting for the latest proponent of this, RazorEdge to apologise and retract their hurtful and demeaning post.

Deadringer · 11/06/2020 19:37

Someone mentioned the magic sorting hat earlier. Wouldn't it be amazing if we had one at every women's loo, you have to put it on your head before you enter, and it sorts everyone out by shouting WOMAN! TRANSWOMAN! TRANSMAN! PREDATORY ABUSER! We could use it for sports and changing rooms too. But we don't, so single sex is safest for women and girls.

TorkTorkBam · 11/06/2020 19:41

@Deadringer

Someone mentioned the magic sorting hat earlier. Wouldn't it be amazing if we had one at every women's loo, you have to put it on your head before you enter, and it sorts everyone out by shouting WOMAN! TRANSWOMAN! TRANSMAN! PREDATORY ABUSER! We could use it for sports and changing rooms too. But we don't, so single sex is safest for women and girls.
That would revolutionise Tinder.

Incels would get even more upset though.

They'd demand it shouted "nice guy" instead of "controlling sexist"

ShebaShimmyShake · 11/06/2020 19:46

Thatwould revolutionise Tinder... They'd demand it shouted "nice guy" instead of "controlling sexist"

Ladies, gentlemen, intersex people and those who insist it's all made up anyway, this is your winning internet line for the evening. Thank you for coming, it's been a true pleasure. Goodnight and God bless.

sleepydragons · 11/06/2020 19:54

If she can find relief by permanently living in a female role, then they are socially female and the law should protect them

Socially female maybe but not biologically female. They can still commit rape. No person with a penis should be in female spaces regardless of whether they consider themselves to be male or female.

MaleficentsCrow · 11/06/2020 19:57

Single sex spaces are the equivalent of racism...sweet Mary and Jesus I've heard it all now.

Women can not rape woman and impregnate them.

Men can rape women and impregnate them.

Not all men are rapists, but all rapists are men....

Let that sink in....just for 2 seconds.

Now, rapists don't wear a badge that say "I'm a rapist" , don't get me wrong life would be easier if they did.

So to protect women, we say no men can come in to spaces where women are vulnerable just incase one of you are a rapist. Men generally accept this as fair, because generally men who are not rapists want women to be safe and protected.

It's not hard to understand the above, and why the majority of both men and women accept this as fair.