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Original poster

Churchill to Hitler

423 replies

Pinkkgaga · 10/06/2020 12:44

So it’s trending on Twitter that people are comparing Churchill to Hitler and saying he was just as bad.
Absolutely disgusting imo, but I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on it.

OP posts:
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11
Pumperthepumper · 10/06/2020 16:08

@transformandriseup

Why the fuck are people so binary? The world isn't divided into Good and Bad.

I agree

I agree too. I think the issue just now is the realisation of how sterilised the history of the British empire has been, and how we were taught. People are fed up of other histories being erased because British people are so desperate to believe that Churchill equals hero, end of story.
GreytExpectations · 10/06/2020 16:09

No surprise that the "Great" British are in deniel about their past. Its shocking how much is left out of the GCSE books....

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 10/06/2020 16:11

I think you can acknowledge the positive aspects of historical characters, appreciate the value and significance of their contributions to civilisation, and at the same time admit that they had their flaws as people, and that there may have been aspects to their behaviour that would be deemed criminal or unsavoury today.

Where does that leave us with statues? I truly don't know.

Statues to me are for the purpose of veneration, not commemoration. A plaque is suffice to commemorate. The problem as I see it, is that if you're going to argue that Churchill does not deserve veneration, and therefore a statue, should we also think about demolishing statues of Nelson Mandela, or perhaps Martin Luther King? Both men undoubtedly made huge contributions to the furtherment of their causes and humanity as a whole, but both had rather dubious personal morality, and the followers of both indulged in some utterly reprehensible behaviours.

Is there a cut-off point whereby your 'good deeds' outweigh your bad, and if so, who decides where that arbitrary point lies?

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 10/06/2020 16:12

No surprise that the "Great" British are in deniel about their past.

I'm as guilty as anyone regards spelling, so I'll let that one go.

But "Great Britain" is

a) to distinguish it from 'Little Britian' aka Brittany in France, Bretagne vs Grande Bretagne

and

b) The name of eighth largest island in the world, the largest island in the British Archipelago, as in Grand Bahama or Big Island in Hawaii.

DGRossetti · 10/06/2020 16:16

@GreytExpectations

No surprise that the "Great" British are in deniel about their past. Its shocking how much is left out of the GCSE books....
The "Great" in "Great[er] Britain" arose from a need to distinguish it from Brittany, which used to be known as "Less[er] Britain" for a few centuries (after it was Amorica for the Romans). Seeing as the inhabitants were very closely related. (That's my Arthurian fanbois seeing the light of day Grin)

It's a geographic, not cultural or political term. And as such seems fairly accurate ?

HesterShaw1 · 10/06/2020 16:16

Always makes me laugh how people assume that Britain awarded itself the adjective Great, because we thought we were really terrific.

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 10/06/2020 16:16

....and before anyone says it, "An Empire on which the sun never sets" was present continuous, a reference to the fact that it was daylight somewhere shining on the flag. Not a prediction that the Empire would last forever.

cologne4711 · 10/06/2020 16:16

I'm not sure Hitler had any redeeming qualities. I was shocked by how sexist the Nazi state was, for example, even before you get to the Holocaust and murder of anyone he didn't consider worthy of life.

He did not kill the Jews by accident, as a pp implied.

As for Churchill, he may have defeated Hitler (with a lot of help - including from my dad who was in the later part of the D-day landings) but he was directly or indirectly responsible for a great many deaths including those who died in Coventry when he let the Germans bomb it even though he knew they were coming and bombed the French navy to stop it falling into German hands. I don't however believe he had a desire to simply wipe people out for the sake of it, as a pp implied.

cologne4711 · 10/06/2020 16:18

No surprise that the "Great" British are in deniel about their past. Its shocking how much is left out of the GCSE books

I think someone else needs to read a history (geography?) book!

As for GCSE books I read my son's GCSE textbook, and found it very biased but not in the way you mean.

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 10/06/2020 16:18

I'm not sure Hitler had any redeeming qualities.

Liked dogs.
Smart dresser.
Average watercolourist. (Not as good as Churchill.)

GreytExpectations · 10/06/2020 16:21

Ffs everyone, clearly I was just making a point with the Great. No need to get pedantic Hmm clearly the English can't accept the truth about their past.

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 10/06/2020 16:22

@cologne4711

I'm not sure Hitler had any redeeming qualities

This is a bit 'well at least Mussolini made the trains run on time', but for the sake of it, Hitler was a passionate believer in animal rights, was vegetarian because of his philosophical beliefs, and was also a rabid anti-smoker. The Nazis carried out the world's first large-scale public anti-smoking campaign, improved public health no end, and also more or less eradicated unemployment.

This is purely a tongue-in-cheek response of course, and in no way does any of that in any way redeem them or absolve them of their horrific acts of genocide and persecution, but you did ask.... Grin

PotholeParadise · 10/06/2020 16:23

@cologne4711

I'm not sure Hitler had any redeeming qualities. I was shocked by how sexist the Nazi state was, for example, even before you get to the Holocaust and murder of anyone he didn't consider worthy of life.

He did not kill the Jews by accident, as a pp implied.

As for Churchill, he may have defeated Hitler (with a lot of help - including from my dad who was in the later part of the D-day landings) but he was directly or indirectly responsible for a great many deaths including those who died in Coventry when he let the Germans bomb it even though he knew they were coming and bombed the French navy to stop it falling into German hands. I don't however believe he had a desire to simply wipe people out for the sake of it, as a pp implied.

The first poster read their post back and made another post to clarify that they recognised Hitler had deliberately sought to murder millions of people.

I think the other poster was implying not that Hitler killed millions of people by accident, but that Churchill's actions were deliberate.

HesterShaw1 · 10/06/2020 16:24

No need to get pedantic hmm clearly the English can't accept the truth about their past.

English or British?

BlueBooby · 10/06/2020 16:26

Has there ever been a truly "good" leader, in the moral sense of the word, in any country? I haven't seen this mentioned but today is #shutdownstem and #shutdownacademia day. I don't think this is a solution to anything.

HesterShaw1 · 10/06/2020 16:30

Has there ever been a truly "good" leader, in the moral sense of the word, in any country?

I was thinking about this earlier, hence my comment about there being no such thing as binary Good and Bad in the world when it comes to leaders. The closest I can think of is Jacinda Adern.

Most people would agree that Barack Obama is a pretty decent human being, but he had to make some choices which resulted in some pretty awful things happening. Isn't it the nature of leadership?

DGRossetti · 10/06/2020 16:30

....and before anyone says it, "An Empire on which the sun never sets" was present continuous, a reference to the fact that it was daylight somewhere shining on the flag. Not a prediction that the Empire would last forever.

I thought it was more because God wouldn't trust an Englishman in the dark ?

MockersGuidedByTheScience · 10/06/2020 16:32

Good one DGR

Obama? Targetted killings by drone described as 'bringing justice to them.'

Not a good look for a former president of the Harvard Law School.

Andthenthenewone · 10/06/2020 16:32

I was thinking about this earlier, hence my comment about there being no such thing as binary Good and Bad in the world when it comes to leaders. The closest I can think of is Jacinda Adern.
Jacinda is truly up there with the very best women. Now THAT is a statue.... Grin

Pumperthepumper · 10/06/2020 16:33

@HesterShaw1

Has there ever been a truly "good" leader, in the moral sense of the word, in any country?

I was thinking about this earlier, hence my comment about there being no such thing as binary Good and Bad in the world when it comes to leaders. The closest I can think of is Jacinda Adern.

Most people would agree that Barack Obama is a pretty decent human being, but he had to make some choices which resulted in some pretty awful things happening. Isn't it the nature of leadership?

These were the people who sprang to my mind too, although I agree that nobody is truly good or bad. I also think you have to have a certain type of ruthlessness to be a leader, which doesn’t often lend itself to infallible kindness.
HesterShaw1 · 10/06/2020 16:35

Obama? Targetted killings by drone described as 'bringing justice to them.'

Not a good look for a former president of the Harvard Law School.

Well no. That was kind of the point I was making.

Bluebooby · 10/06/2020 16:36

Thank you Hester. Yes I agree it's the nature of leadership. And, there isn't a person alive or dead who isn't/wasn't flawed in some way. We can't "cancel" everyone.

Vivi0 · 10/06/2020 16:37

Has there ever been a truly "good" leader, in the moral sense of the word, in any country?

That is a really good question.

Hingeandbracket · 10/06/2020 16:38

@transformandriseup

Why the fuck are people so binary? The world isn't divided into Good and Bad.

I agree

Me too - this binary mentality is very wearing - where did it start?
MockersGuidedByTheScience · 10/06/2020 16:39

No need to get pedantic hmm clearly the English can't accept the truth about their past. - English or British?

Rather like the tense negotiations over Irish Partition when a member of the Sinn Fein delegation lauched into a tirade about the English and all their historic crimes. PM Lloyd-George turned to his private secretary Thomas Jones and sighed, then replied:

You, Mister Childers, are the only Englishman in the room.