Page 4 | To be glad that I don't live in Ashbourne?

MaxNormal · 2020-06-10T06:56:57+00:00

Locals there have seized a racist caricature statue and hidden it to keep it safe from removal. It's supposedly with a local Tory councillor, who laughed and hung up when phoned for comment. AIBU to think that is indicative of a racist unpleasant place? [[https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/09/derbyshire-towns-bust-of-black-man-seized-by-defiant-locals]]

frumpety · 10/06/2020 10:08

I wonder if they've hidden it in a football ?

Enderthedragon · 10/06/2020 10:10

'Censorship of history' my arse. What is censoring history is not recognising the full historical context of these statues etc, only seeing a certain side of things. By taking them down we are doing to opposite of censoring history, we are breaking the history wide open for everyone to see.

And its really fucking uncomfortable isn't it?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2020 10:10

Why aren't my paragraphs working?

AJPTaylor · 10/06/2020 10:11

But the council planned to remove it to avoid public disquiet?
With a view to consult? And it would seem that it is in fact of celebration of a Turkish man who brought prosperity to the town. Admittedly it does now look a bit poor. But it's part of a listed building.

IWantT0BreakFree · 10/06/2020 10:12

I notice no one is rushing to shut down the schools and hospitals endowed by these people

Do you genuinely not understand the difference? Or are you clutching at straws to justify keeping a statue of a man who bought and sold tens of thousands of human beings, allowing them to die, chained to each other on ships, and to be raped and beaten?

A school or a hospital obviously serves the community. A statue's sole purpose is to commemorate someone/something. To celebrate it. There's the (bleeding obvious) difference. And there's also the fact that the slave owners did not build or endow anything off their own backs. These institutions were built using the wealth generated by the labour of the slaves they bought and owned. Their descendants should not now have to endure ongoing racism and the enduring monuments to the people who bought and sold their ancestors, in order for people like you to deem them worthy of benefitting from the infrastructure that they were forced to fund with their labour and their lives. Infrastructure that, across the country (and the world), Black people still have less access to than their white counterparts.

Look at Germany (as has been brought up many times in the last few days) to see how buildings and resources put in place by the Nazis can be repurposed for the benefit of all, without justifying having statues of Hitler all over the place. Because, quite obviously to anyone with half a brain, the two things are not the same.

Bubblebu · 10/06/2020 10:17

This feels ridiculous to me.
Real progress in society is not when all artefacts of the past are torn down and eliminated because the offend some part of society.
Progress is when a person of ANY race can comfortably and confidently walk through Ashbourne or anywhere else where such things are displayed and acknowledge (along with the rest of us) that yes that did happen and no it does not happen any more (and yes I have seen and abhor what happened to George Floyd and no I am not saying that does not still happen in many places; but it does not happen predominantly because an artefact is still on display).
I am white and went to Ashbourne early 90s when I was at uni with a uni friend who happened to live in the peak district at the time. Should I feel guilty about the colour of my skin? should I feel guilty about my "white privilege"; should I feel guilty that I went to uni in the early 90s; should I feel guilty that I am not revolted by arcane and historic artefacts? I think no.
But that does not mean I cannot exactly see why BLM and these kinds of news items appear. The two are not co exclusive.
I sincerely do not want to offend anyone by this post.

Fishypants · 10/06/2020 10:21

Nihiloxica

I thought mobs doing things to statues was OK?"

Only if it's Saddam Hussein or Stalin according to the true patriots.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 10/06/2020 10:25

One thing I don't get though is that on the BBC site it seems to be smiling in one picture and not in the other?

I live nearby - the idea of the "two faces" is that he was happy to be coming into Ashbourne and sorry to be leaving - though according to some on here, why he'd be happy to enter such a place is anyone's guess

MarginalGain · 10/06/2020 10:29

Only if it's Saddam Hussein or Stalin according to the true patriots.

The statue of Hussein was toppled in a frenzy of joy at the toppling of the man, or so the narrative goes. I'm some would suspect it was confected joy, fair enough. But this was not part of a broader plan to erase Babylon's history (because of slavery, for example) which is now precisely the case against the worrying march towards the destruction of any evidence of empire - it erases history.

ohfirefly · 10/06/2020 10:31

We visit and pass through Ashbourne regularly and I have to say I'm glad they've taken it down, it's always made me cringe as it felt just so inappropriate, plus my children were terrified of it (which I can't blame them for at all, they are sensitive kids and any big staring head just sitting there would scare them) but I did always worry it might contribute to them forming unconscious bias in a way because the scary head they're afraid of in Ashbourne happens to be black, you don't know how unconscious fears form in their little heads.

bibbitybobbitycats · 10/06/2020 10:36

@MarginalGain

Only if it's Saddam Hussein or Stalin according to the true patriots.

The statue of Hussein was toppled in a frenzy of joy at the toppling of the man, or so the narrative goes. I'm some would suspect it was confected joy, fair enough. But this was not part of a broader plan to erase Babylon's history (because of slavery, for example) which is now precisely the case against the worrying march towards the destruction of any evidence of empire - it erases history.

Having statues that celebrate murderers without making it plain what they really were is erasing the history of millions of black people who lived and died in slavery and pain.

hypatiently · 10/06/2020 10:41

Wow, I can't believe so many are more upset about the OP disparaging a town than the racist statements and actions reported.

A lick of black paint?!?! WTF?!?!

bibbitybobbitycats · 10/06/2020 10:44

@hypatiently

Wow, I can't believe so many are more upset about the OP disparaging a town than the racist statements and actions reported.

A lick of black paint?!?! WTF?!?!

It is fucked up. They'll be boycotting Sainsbury's next.

Alderaan · 10/06/2020 10:51

It definitely is true. I live in Derby down the road and I have friends in Ashbourne. It's a very pretty town but sadly there do seem to be a lot of bigots.

Nihiloxica · 10/06/2020 10:52

@Fishypants

Nihiloxica

I thought mobs doing things to statues was OK?"

Only if it's Saddam Hussein or Stalin according to the true patriots.

Or David Williams.

But not Matt Lucas.

He's exempt (for now).

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/06/2020 10:55

He bloody isn't.

I only just found out he'll be hosting Bake Off!!?

Sod that for a game of soldiers!??

TheFuckingDogs · 10/06/2020 11:02

Racist Racist Racist. Anyone on here defending the stealing of the artefact to “put back when the fuss has died down” us racist.
Sorry but you are. Obviously many people in Ashbourne are not racist as there was a huge petition to have it removed. A much smaller petition was started to keep it there. They realised they wouldn’t “win” so the racists stole the artefact themselves. So they are also cheats as well as racists.
It is pretty funny though that there’s a gang of snarling Middle aged white men gathered in a garage somewhere desperately protecting their racist artefact

Enderthedragon · 10/06/2020 11:02

Having statues that celebrate murderers without making it plain what they really were is erasing the history of millions of black people who lived and died in slavery and pain.

Exactly. That is what 'erasing history' is. History is written by the victors, and doesn't it sure show on this particular issue.

heartsonacake · 10/06/2020 11:10

And its really fucking uncomfortable isn't it?

Enderthedragon No, actually it’s not uncomfortable at all.

It is what it is. We can’t change the past, we can only learn from it, and dragging statues down because you’re trying to erase what happened isn’t going to help.

This mindless destruction is just embarrassing on the protestors part and turns people away from what should be a genuine cause.

IntermittentParps · 10/06/2020 11:14

dragging statues down because you’re trying to erase what happened isn’t going to help.
Having them properly removed and placed in museums, with context so that we can still see and understand what happened in the past, IS going to help though, and that's closer to what's being proposed in the current cases.
Unfortunately for your rhetoric.

Enderthedragon · 10/06/2020 11:16

It is what it is. We can’t change the past, we can only learn from it, and dragging statues down because you’re trying to erase what happened isn’t going to help.

I don't understand the problem with taking down a statue which celebrates someone who profited from slavery? How on earth are we going to 'learn from history' when we continue to (literally!) put people like Edward Colston on a pedestal? What are we learning?

Leave the plinth, or put another plaque remembering the slaves in the same place. Let that be the symbol of what really happened.

Enderthedragon · 10/06/2020 11:18

This mindless destruction is just embarrassing on the protestors part and turns people away from what should be a genuine cause.

It's not 'mindless destruction' is it? I would say it's actually incredibly mindful. It means something.

heartsonacake · 10/06/2020 11:23

@Enderthedragon

This mindless destruction is just embarrassing on the protestors part and turns people away from what should be a genuine cause.

It's not 'mindless destruction' is it? I would say it's actually incredibly mindful. It means something.

It doesn’t mean anything. It’s just vandals jumping on a bandwagon.

WhereYouLeftIt · 10/06/2020 11:24

Hmm. I read the BBC article as well as the Gaurdian's, and this was in the BBC's but NOT the Graun's.

"Resident Darren Waring, who said he was involved in taking down the feature, said: "People are making these racist overtures without knowing the facts."

He said the figure is a head of a Turkish man who came to Ashbourne hundreds of years ago and traded coffee.

"He brought prosperity. He was a well-respected and well-loved Turkish man so in his honour they put his head up. It has nothing to do with slavery," he said.

He added in the 1980s, he went up to the sign to restore it with his father.

"The sign was actually dark brown," he said. "My dad explained to me this is a Turkish man, not a black man. It was painted brown then something has gone wrong in the restoration."

Now why would the Graun not report that?

Mintjulia · 10/06/2020 11:25

It isn’t that the OP is disparaging a town, it is the sweeping generalisation that is offensive.

What next? All white people are racist? It’s absurd and does the BLM campaign no credit at all.