JK Rowling, is she being unreasonable? YABU = don't agree with JK, YANBU = do agree with JK **MNHQ edited wonky title**

[Thepigeonsarecoming]

Massive social media debate going on with JK stating “erasing the concept of sex removes the ability of many to meaningfully discuss their lives”

Wanted to know outside the feminist board how people feel. Is she being unreasonable in being against transgender people identifying as they feel as in sex. Or is this the normal view and trans gender people should accept they are male/female dependant on their birth?

[Flippetydip]

Can someone explain why it's ok for a man to 'be' a woman because they say they are but I can't (quite rightly) identify as black?

No, I can't because I don't understand it. Is someone brave enough to ask on Twitter as everyone has the answers there apparently.

[FaceOfASpink]

Livid you're brave to do that. Thank you. Someone asked earlier why people don't weigh in more. I would actually lose my job if I did.

[ilovemydogandMrObama]

@Trevsadick

I am a bame women. Though, as i am of mixed heritage with very light skin, most people think I am white.

Despite being a bame women, my lived experience is not that of a black woman. Black women really suffer under structures that are actively, racist and sexist. More than black men and more than white women.

Despite being bame, i would not darken my skin and tell black women, what their experience is. I would not tell black women, that they are what I say they are and erase their experiences, erase their struggles, erase their concerns.

I dont sit here and pretend my life has been exactly the same as theirs. I certainly don't darken my skin and tell them what it means to be a black woman.

Being mixed heritage has its own struggles. Just like being trans has its own struggles. That doesnt mean i can take over black womens issues and claim them from my own.

I am not a black woman. I never will be.

Your sex is a fact. Its in every cell of your body. It impacts you everyday.

Transwomen are trans women. Even taking hormones their skeletal and muscular structures are not that of biological females.

They haven't grown up and lived as females. I dont know what it's like to be trans woman. Thats not my experience.

Its not OK for transwomen to tell me what being a biological woman is. Its not OK when its race, its not OK when its sex.

Trans people should be able to live their lives. They shouldn't be attacked for being trans. They should present as whatever gender they want. But their sex is, unchangeable.

And quite frankly, most trans people, know this. Theres a smallish, but vocal group who are misogynist bullies, who use anything they can to silence biological women. And do you know why? Because their male privilege has taught them that behaviour.

Wow - I hadn't thought about that -- 'because their male privilege has taught them that behaviour...'

[DomDoesWotHeWants]

What JK said was the truth.

You cannot change sex.

[Trevsadick]

I keep off twitter. Not for this reason but I just never got into it.

I have, however, had several debates on Facebook. They havent descended into abuse. Though, people seem ill informed. I have been told about trans women having female brains. Thats science has proved it. But no one can provide the scientific evidence. Turns out they just read it on twitter.

But, yes, a lot of women do go along with this and are very vocal in their support of misogynist abuse of women, on this issue. Eapecially on twitter.

My own teen dd used the word terf the other day, which caused almighty hell in this house. I wasnt having it. We then had a reasoned debate about it. Her views were formed mainly from twitter, what people said rather than what JKR said. I had to deliver some uncomfortable truths to her. Despite being brought up regularly discussing womens issues, twitter seems to have erased that. I directed her to a study dont in the netherlands that found that transwomen commit crime at the same rate as men who identify as men. And same for transmen.

I had to point out that she is far more at risk from biologicals males that biplogical women. Thats theres no evidence of a female brain. That men who take hormones still do not have a female body.

Thankfully, she is now thinking about the wider issues. About how her school, has influenced her TWAW thinking. How her lived experiences shape who she is and who she will become.

I expect to have this conversation many more times.

But what she does know is that hate speech against anyone (and term is a term of hate) is absolutely unacceptable. She is a huge supporter of BLM and I am proud of her for that. But this clearly needs some work.

Unfortunately, her father, my exh cant deal with uncomftable sitiations so never challenges her thinking. Doesnt really listen. Just sits and nods along.

[FOJN]

There is no appeasing some of the more aggressive activists, Daniel Radcliffe has thrown himself to the wolves, he just doesn't know it yet. I wonder if he will see the issue differently when they turned on him because they will, they always do.

[EnthusiasmIsDisturbed]

She isn’t wrong

Unless we change biological facts

But then again a man corrected her so she must be wrong

[MsSafina]

IS there any scientific evidence that trans women menstruate?

[SophocIestheFox]

JKR is completely correct in what she said, and nothing she said was hateful.

It’s never a “good time” to advocate for women’s rights. It’s always jam tomorrow for women, never jam today. And only if we’re good enough, nice enough, humble enough, and only if it doesn’t upset men. There is no amount of “nice” that is enough for transactivism. Rest assured that no matter how supportive you are, how much of an ally, how much you subjugate your own feelings and wants, the mob will come for you one day- just ask Amanda Jetté Knox!

Twitter isn’t real life, twitter spats aren’t mature, nuanced debates, online mobs don’t represent what people really think. Thank god!

[Chrisinthemorning]

She’s right.

[Floisme]

I've not voted as you have somehow managed to mangle the question.

JKR is completely correct. Sex is real and only women menstruate.

[Sceptre86]

I think she was absolutely right in everything she said. It is her opinion and she should be allowed to say it. She should and has been challenged and in a 'free' world that is also acceptable. Just as if someone is racist and airs their views, they have the right to speak and other people have a right to challenge.

I support gay rights, I support trans rights, I support the notion that people can be whoever they want to be binary or non-binary. I am however a women, biologically female and I identify as female apparently that makes me a cisgender female? I support women's rights. I will NOTsupport them being eroded. Women have been silenced by men for far too long, well my voice will not be silenced. I speak for myself and noone else! Having periods is not the only thing that defines me as a women but it has affected my life. They started when I was 10 and have been the bane of my existence ever since. Health issues that solely affect women do exist and it is this attitude that sweeps them under the carpet eg. a trans female will not experience menopause but a biological female will and these experiences do affect women.

Most biologically born women have periods. There are some that don't as a result of health conditions or take a contraceptive which prevents it but on the whole they do. Trans men may have periods but that has nothing to do with how they identify but the fact that they were born biologically female in the same way that they can get pregnant or give birth. Trans women do not have the similar experiences many biologically born females do and that is fact. If is their argument against facts that I disagree with.

[isabellerossignol]

the mob will come for you one day- just ask Amanda Jetté Knox!

I missed that! What happened to the smuggest handmaiden on Twitter?

[Alltheprettyseahorses]

JK Rowling said we are women, not 'menstruators', sex exists and matters and same-sex attraction exists. There is nothing remotely unreasonable about any of that. No, transwomen weren't included in that but not everything revolves around them, get over it, a quick glance at BBC news front page doesn't show a single story that centres transwomen there either, that's life, it's not all about you - sometimes it's about women. Twitter isn't real life; quite the opposite.

[emilybrontescorsett]

For the hard of thinking:
Sex and gender are not the same.
I agree with JK.

[Coffeecak3]

As always when a woman says no to a man, including a man that identifies as a woman, then obviously she has to be wrong.
Men have to control women even whilst wanting to be them.

[JemimaShore]

The bullying of JK on twitter (and of many women who say similar things) is something to behold isn't it? So misogynistic - hundreds (thousands?) of men tweeting that JK can "suck their dicks."

These are abusive men. Men that respect women do not use these words to women EVER.

If you examine what JK actually tweeted, it is not against trans people - it is just saying that biological sex is real, and matters too. JK is supportive of trans people having equal rights, and freedom of self-expression.

What she did was break the laws of gender ideology - as espoused by queer theorists like Judith Butler. The theory that biological sex is a social construct, and that gender identity should take precedence in law and life.

I can't agree with this - if women can't recognise biological sex, they cannot recognise the sexism inherent is society. Which takes me back to the misogynistic nature of the attacks on JK Rowling. This is nothing more than woman-hating. A modern day witch-burning.

I stand with JK Rowling.

[Aesopfable]

If we use Stonewall’s estimate of numbers of Transwomen then over 99% retain their penis. Stonewall also want to do away with single sex spaces and trains organisations in a lie about the Equality Act - telling them any man who wants to may enter female spaces. Any of the hundreds of thousand of men who call themselves trans can follow your daughter into the communal changing rooms at the swimming pool. Any given you don’t need surgery, hormones, any change of clothes or a shave to call yourselves trans and organisations are told they cannot question them then ANY man can follow your daughter into the changing rooms and strip off in front of her.

[JemimaShore]

Just to add - Some of the people attacking JKR, I wonder if they have even read what she tweeted, let alone any of her books.

They show a complete lack of understanding of who she is, and the themes that she has always written around - ie. authoritarianism, bravery, kindness.

She won't bow to an authoritarian twitter pile-on, telling her what to think, and that metaphorically burns women at the stake for talking about female biology, no matter how many are baying for her blood on twitter.

[snitzelvoncrumb]

I'm sorry to be a pain, but can someone please explain what the issue is with rights and a trans person identifying as a woman? I have seen this topic come up of the feminist thread on here and I have always been to scared to ask.

[Igglepigglesgrubbyblanket]

My understanding of it is this; there is gender (psychological & social) and there is sex (biological)

I think trans people want to foreground gender rather than sex. My understanding is that although there are some who would like to erase sex, the majority just want to be accepted as the gender identity they choose (pronouns, toilets etc...)

What JK Rowling is highlighting (I think) is that sex is a more real and unchangeable thing, and often where the sexes are segregated that is based on biology not on psychology and sociology. Eg. Women generally have more fat and less muscle for sports, need a bin for period stuff etc...

I agree with that, but I do feel sorry for trans people. Trans women get a lot of shit, they suffer from the on the street crap we get as women, plus the revulsion and violence that comes when men realise they've been catcalling a trans person.
I don't think trans women are women unless you redefine the word woman, but I do think they are people who deserve respect and understanding, and to have people call them the name and pronouns of their choice.
I also feel sorry for and identify with women who are scared that stronger bigger people with penis's will invade their safe spaces. Especially refuges. Male on female violence is really common and women do need to be able to carve out safe spaces for themselves.

Does this make sense? I really daren't ever say it IRL because everyone seems very angry about it.

[DickKerrLadies]

Nothing she has actually said on twitter has been unreasonable.

She did use sarcasm though. That was probably a problem too. [sits on hands]

[ItsLateHumpty]

@isabellerossignol

the mob will come for you one day- just ask Amanda Jetté Knox!

I missed that! What happened to the smuggest handmaiden on Twitter?

She was eaten! They (TRAs) chewed her up and spat her out after she published ‘Love Lives Here’ because she stole trans voices ie she forgot she was only there as a support human, didn’t kiss enough boots and got too big for hers.

quillette.com/2020/05/20/as-common-sense-returns-to-the-gender-debate-radicals-set-upon-their-own-allies/

From the article

But last week, an increasingly vicious mob campaign against Knox took its toll, and Knox decided to close up her Twitter account. When one of the trolls opened a new Facebook front against her over the weekend, this at a time when she was still grieving the death of a friend’s child, Knox had something of a breakdown and even considered suicide.

The trolls that targeted Knox were avowed trans activists, just like their target. Amanda Jetté Knox, author of Love Lives Here: A Story of Thriving in a Transgender Family, was excommunicated for being insufficiently supportive of trans people.

Purity spirals are a bitch!

[Doyoumind]

I wish there was greater understanding of the fact that the vast majority of TW don't have surgery and many don't transition medically in any way. They simply say they are women.

A lot of those uninformed about the debate but supporting trans rights are supporting the old fashioned idea of transsexuals. They also haven't considered what changing the legal definition of a woman really means.

Those who are informed and still think bepenised people with beards are women who should have access to all things for women are the ones I really can't get my head around.

[YinMnBlue]

Science as always will catch up
What???

And your male-free sperm?

Surgically achieved ‘evolution’?

Science as always will catch up

OP.... maybe leave the scientific discussion to one side, it isn’t your strongest subject.

Stick to opinions.

Do you think people born with male bodies should be able to compete in women’s sporting championships? Does the athlete’s feelings of being feminine gender trump their physical development as a man in being able to compete for women’s event trophies?