Can we now finally get rid of 'Do they know it's Christmas'?

[Tokenminority]

This song drives me absolutely up the wall. It's patronising, reductive, and it completely harms efforts towards equality.

I understand the focus on equal opportunities and stopping police brutality, but other narratives, such as the pictures painted in the 'Do they know it's Christmas' song, can be just as harmful.

'Africa' is not a country. You did not go on holiday to 'Africa', similarly to how you wouldn't have sent that you went on holiday to 'Europe' when you in fact went to France.

Of course there are major problems surrounding poverty on the African continent, just as there are in other places, but African countries are not only filled with begging, malnourished children who have never seen a Christmas present.

The picture attached is a photograph of Lagos. If I went on the street and asked random people on which continent that photo was taken, would anyone even consider the possibility that it may have been Africa?

Me either. I doubt any of those involved would sing it now.

I remember listening to a guest speaker at our youth club in the 80's and he was so passionate about his song - in awe at the amount of money raised and the good intentions that generated it, but so angry about 'the one major flaw' in it - he said there was a mistake in the title of the song. Instead of being 'Do THEY know its Christmas?' he argues it should have been 'Do WE know it's Christmas?'. We think we are so good trying to help while we all have a nice jolly time stuffing our faces. Always remember that speaker, have long since forgotten all the others that came along.

I would be interested to understand how far people would be willing to go to erase any references made to beliefs or actions that would be viewed as unacceptable when viewed through a modern lens?

Music, literature and art is a product of its time and will therefore reflects the prevailing attitudes of its era. For this reason so many historic works are riddled with all sorts of prejudice and stereotypes that wouldn't be tolerated if the same pieces were to be created today. That surely doesn't mean though that all of this art, music or writing should just be disregarded or banned? If we were to impose such an ethos then where would that leave many religious and historically important texts?

@Bumpitybumper

I would be interested to understand how far people would be willing to go to erase any references made to beliefs or actions that would be viewed as unacceptable when viewed through a modern lens?

Music, literature and art is a product of its time and will therefore reflects the prevailing attitudes of its era. For this reason so many historic works are riddled with all sorts of prejudice and stereotypes that wouldn't be tolerated if the same pieces were to be created today. That surely doesn't mean though that all of this art, music or writing should just be disregarded or banned? If we were to impose such an ethos then where would that leave many religious and historically important texts?

Copying from another thread to which I responded previously.

I am in no way interested in deleting the past. The problem is not in essence the song itself, the problem is that the song is still influencing how people in the UK view Africa and African countries.

If there were a lot of updated, more nuanced representations of the African continent floating around in the UK media, then the song's existence would not bother me at all. That is not the case though, and that's where my problem lies.

This song is still used to try and get people to donate. It's still one of the most played songs during the Christmas period. We are still talking about Africa as a homogeneous entity which needs to be saved from its own misfortune in school, on TV, on social media.

The pictures attached are not from 1984, they are from June 2020. The message is still exactly the same. All children in Africa are starving and Africa is a barren, lost-cause continent which is only being kept afloat by the generosity of Western donations.

It would be the same if Housekeeping Monthly's 1955 article “The Good Wife’s Guide,” was still one the main pieces of media used to portray a woman's place within UK society.

I recall quite a few people being pissed off when Donald Trump highlighted how the UK was having a terrible time with Covid, so he generously donated some of his excess ventilators to help the poor souls. It was offensive, and, in my opinion, so is this.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

I am absolutely in awe at the mental gymnastics some posters are displaying here.

The song didn’t even “do some good”. It led to the deaths and further poverty of a vast amount of people.

It shows the exact problem with this kind of “white saviour” fundraising. People give money and then move on with their lives enjoying the warm fuzzy feeling, without even bothering to follow up on how their money was spent.

I don’t understand why this is being glossed over?

I very rarely respond to posts, however, all this tripe being posted about the BandAid song is beyond belief. I remember the harrowing footage of the Ethiopian people starving, of children dying and the sheer hopelessness of the situation.
People didn’t know how to respond, how they could help people, how they could hopefully stop this famine and save lives. These were ordinary people, in ordinary jobs with ordinary lives, people were moved and shocked.
Yes, the song is not relevant anymore, yes, it hasn’t stood the test of time, it wasn’t designed to. It was something cobbled together by people who were also shocked by the harrowing footage on the tv.
It worked, people sent millions of pounds in their belief that they were helping, they didn’t care what colour skin people had, they cared that people were dying and wanted to help.
The fact that the money was then misappropriated by various corrupt governments and used to buy weapons etc, instead Of helping to avoid people dying, is not the fault of the people who donated money by buying the record or by donating money.
If the governments and corrupt leaders then kept the money and this wasn’t challenged by people who were in a position to challenge them, then what were people who gave this money in good faith supposed to do?
Of course, people know that Ethiopia and other African countries are vibrant, modern places to live and that people do not live in mud huts etc.
Please get off your high horse - you must be getting dizzy up there, people tried to help, full stop.
Yes, the record is crap and the words are crap, however, it raised awareness and it raised money to help stop people dying from starvation.
Don’t listen to it, if it offends you so much, but please stop and think of why it was recorded in the first instance.

Greeneyedminx Why have you jumped in defending the people that donated?

How did you get the message “everyone who donates to charity is racist” from this thread?

This thread is criticising those behind both that single and the charity. Those are the people who, as you say yourself, spent funds irresponsibly and led to the deaths of the very people they were purporting to want to help.

Even if you gloss over whether money is being spent, and assume that the charities are genuinely making a difference to people's lives, it simply isn't true that these kinds of messages and this kind of imagery does not lead to any harmful stereotyping and an us vs them mentality. A selection of the comments underneath this UNICEF advert from this year for example:

'Why aren't the developed nations helping them?

  We do help, but they just keep producing more 
  and more children'

'It's their own people that have created these issues. It should never be some other country feeding them. When they get free aid they sell it to the people. If you've got money you eat, if you don't, you starve. The corruption has got to end.'

The song is not the only problematic depiction, it's part of a larger phenomenon, but the song is what gets played constantly, so it sticks in your head.

What would you rather have happened? People did nothing?
Why aren’t you having a go at the people who mismanaged the whole situation, not the people who tried their best to help from a distance.
The corrupt government who kept the money for their own nefarious reasons instead of providing food and shelter for the very people it was intended for? Who is making them responsible for their actions?
How did other African nations stand by and do nothing to help these poor dying Ethiopians?
Stop blaming Bob Geldof and others for trying to help prevent people from dying. They at least tried, others stood by and did nothing.

I am in no way interested in deleting the past. The problem is not in essence the song itself, the problem is that the song is still influencing how people in the UK view Africa and African countries.

I think the song is a red herring here. The pervasive view of Africa stems from Colonial times, from religious missionaries and from Western Christian Religions. It was perpetuated by Sunday Schools and youth groups probably as late as the 1980s.

The "poor Africa" view - that absolutely should be challenged - didn't come from the song and would still have existed and persisted if DTKIC was never written.

@Greeneyedminx

What would you rather have happened? People did nothing? Why aren’t you having a go at the people who mismanaged the whole situation, not the people who tried their best to help from a distance. The corrupt government who kept the money for their own nefarious reasons instead of providing food and shelter for the very people it was intended for? Who is making them responsible for their actions? How did other African nations stand by and do nothing to help these poor dying Ethiopians? Stop blaming Bob Geldof and others for trying to help prevent people from dying. They at least tried, others stood by and did nothing.

My problem with this song has nothing to do with the famine in 1984, or with charitable giving for that matter. Most people I know have never even heard of the famine. Unfortunately, quite a few people around me have never even heard of Ethiopia. They do not associate this song with that particular humanitarian disaster at all; if you think everyone does then you are being naive.

Being born after 1984 nowadays would make you 36. There are a hell of a lot of people in this country therefore who don't know anything about the origin and original purpose of 'Do they know its Christmas'. The song is combined with the continuing imagery of starving children in Africa and form prejudices in people's heads. Not because anyone has bad intentions, but because everyone is continuously exposed to this one narrative about Africa. The idea that no African nation or person ever does anything to help their own is part of the exact same problematic narrative, especially having now moved on from 1984.

Greeneyedminx ...

1. Band Aid directly handed money to the government knowing that it would be used to perpetuate atrocities on their own people.

2. You seem to be under the impression that Band Aid were the only ones to “do something”. Other charities were already in the area and helping; dealing with the complex situation. Band Aid breezed past all warnings and declined help or guidance; bulling forward and ending up causing spectacular damage. Surely this is the very definition of “white saviour” - thinking that a completely unqualified musician is more qualified to help than local charities that had been working in the area for decades?

@meuca

I'm South African. The song is atrocious, and contributes to inaccurate stereotypes about Africa.

When I lived in the UK, I heard:
"Do you have roads in South Africa?"
"Do you have cities?"
"Here in Europe every country is different. But you have the same food everywhere in Africa, don't you?"
"You speak English so well!"
(in response to me saying SA is a dangerous country) "Because of all the animals?"

People are SHOCKINGLY ignorant about Africa, and there's no excuse in 2020 to keep playing a song that categorically did more harm than good.

The ignorance goes both ways. When I was in Kenya in 1992 we met a number of local people, some of whom asked where we came from and when told England, these are some of the comments we got:

Do English people come here to see the animals because you have no animals in your country?

Oh yes, your president is Bush, isn't he?

You must be very rich, do you have a million dollars?

England - what part of America is that?

Do you have white skin because you have no sun in your country?

We didn't take offence at any of these remarks or take umbrage at their ignorance, we just answered the questions.

@Al1Langdownthecleghole

I am in no way interested in deleting the past. The problem is not in essence the song itself, the problem is that the song is still influencing how people in the UK view Africa and African countries.

I think the song is a red herring here. The pervasive view of Africa stems from Colonial times, from religious missionaries and from Western Christian Religions. It was perpetuated by Sunday Schools and youth groups probably as late as the 1980s.

The "poor Africa" view - that absolutely should be challenged - didn't come from the song and would still have existed and persisted if DTKIC was never written.

Of course, but this song is what's played all the time and seems to be above reproach, so I focused on the song. I don't know why some posters keep talking about the song as if it is a thing of the past, glossing over the fact that the song was re-made multiple times, most recently in 2014. If everyone was so aware of how the lyrics haven't aged well, you would have thought that they'd have done a better remake.

@grassyhillocks that's easier to do when the ignorance you face doesn't turn into prejudice and racism.

@grassyhillocks

Everytime I've been to East Africa, I got kids shouting "white person" at me - I'd never dream at doing the equivalent to them.

"Of course, people know that Ethiopia and other African countries are vibrant, modern places to live and that people do not live in mud huts etc."
People do still live in mud huts unfortunately, and much worse. Just because there are vibrant cities, doesnt mean the dire poverty has gone. People do still have to walk for water and beg for food. Just because there is a picture on this thread of a vibrant city (at night), doesnt mean it's all Brill.

Geldoff was all talk and attention seeking, but he was also out of his depth when it came to African political leaders.

I have friends from Nigeria and their family lives just outside of Lagos. I read Nigerian News. Today there were interesting articles about poverty, hunger and women standing up to sexual assaults (which are common and a good majority of women's first sexual encounters are unwanted, often as children).

Unfortunately because of Covid, there's been a rise in witch accusations, which means serious assaults and the death of children. It's the Pastors playing on people's misfortunes. But it is happening to children in Lagos.

In that vibrant city are slums. There are apartment blocks called, I face you, you face me, 20 families share a bathroom. There's outbreaks of all kinds of diseases and malnutrition. People live in sewers. Disabled children are neglected and often killed.

There's still a long way to go. Ghana is working hard to get to were Morocco is. Nigeria is badly corrupted, we've just demanded back the money to give everyone gas, because it hasn't been done. The government thought it would get away with it. Money stolen from the people decades ago has finally been discovered. People are hoping that Covid will be a leveller, because for the first time ever, the rich will have to use local hospitals.

So what is a glossy picture supposed to mean?

[quote Tokenminority]@grassyhillocks that's easier to do when the ignorance you face doesn't turn into prejudice and racism.[/quote]
Your comment is somewhat unclear there, could you rephrase that please?

Tabby mums and Ponoka; absolutely no one is denying that there is severe poverty and deprivation in parts of Africa.

The point of the photo of Lagos is to make the point that we rarely are shown that side of Africa. Most of the media people get fed shows mud huts, poverty or civil war.

Imagine if the only things media showed from England was either photos of crowded dilapidated council flats in Grimsby; or the Dartmoor ponies.

Good for the Dartmoor tourism industry, but the pretty shit for the rest of the country.

@meuca Is there any information about what South Africa did as a country in the way of assistance to the starving in Ethiopia and neighbouring regions during that famine?

"Tabby mums and Ponoka; absolutely no one is denying that there is severe poverty and deprivation in parts of Africa."

I would not say "parts of" Africa, I would say in the majority of Africa.

TabbyMumz what’s your point? What are you actually trying to say?

Numerous studies have proven time and again that the heavy handed “Help the poor Africans” type charity actually harms more than it helps.

If you’re feeling attacked because you donate to a charity, none of this is aimed at you! Foreign aid is absolutely essential and needed and nobody is saying we should donate to improve the lives of people living in poverty.

It’s just there are more responsible ways of going about it than what happened with Live Aid.

Charities need to be held to account to ensure that they are helping the right people and managing their donations responsibly.

"Dyrne

TabbyMumzwhat’s your point? What are you actually trying to say?

Numerous studies have proven time and again that the heavy handed “Help the poor Africans” type charity actually harms more than it helps.

If you’re feeling attacked because you donate to a charity, none of this is aimed at you! Foreign aid is absolutely essential and needed and nobody is saying we should donate to improve the lives of people living in poverty.

It’s just there are more responsible ways of going about it than what happened with Live Aid.

Charities need to be held to account to ensure that they are helping the right people and managing their donations responsibly."

Dyrne....I've lived in Africa. I get slightly peeved when people come along with a shiny glossy picture of Lagos at night, giving the very false position that Africa is all fine and dandy and doesnt need any charity. It absolutely does need help. Lots of it.

@grassyhilllocks

The questions you used as an example, none of them are harmful questions. Nobody was querying whether you would be able to function as well as them at work because of your background. Or asking whether you have been to school, or thinking that you are lazy or have poor English skills because of your passport/skin colour. The situation is just not the same. I'm sure plenty of black people with African heritage would be bloody ecstatic if someone once mistakenly assumed that they had cash to burn.

Also, of course I know that there are people in Africa who live in mud huts. The problem comes when that is all you know. There is so much hunger and misery around the world. Yet every time I see an advertisement about doing something about it, I get shown a picture of a starving black child in a desert location.

The message that is sending out is 'look at this helpless black child and their helpless black mother. They are inferior to us who have so much, so the least we can do is share some of our wealth with them. Nobody else will help them. They have no agency at all. Look at them. As the superior race, we have to help them.' These adverts portray these people in the exact same way that the RSPCA portrays images of abused dogs, hoping someone will take pity on them. Those are not images that foster equality. They foster otherness.

It doesn't sound like much in the grand scheme of police brutality and workplace discrimination, but where do you believe those things come from? There is not just some army of racists making life difficult for minorities with their hateful racism. It's lifetimes worth of stories, media narratives and propaganda which subconsciously shape all of our thoughts and feelings.

Of course there are far bigger fish to fry than this song about African children, but in a way it is exactly the point. All these things, from showing 'African' in subservient positions on charity adverts to disproportionately televising the arrest of black men, all of these small things added up together create the racially unequal society that we live in. And we don't want to admit that, so we focus on how racist George Floyd's murderer was, or how live-aid raised millions of dollars to save the poor. The idea of having to throw out some bad fruit is easier to deal with than realising that you might need to plant a whole new tree.

The weird thing about the discussion about this song to me is that so many people are talking about how much they hate that song, how crap it is. Yet the idea of just not playing it anymore is so horrible. If something is no longer relevant, why do we need it exactly? We don't have to pretend that the song never existed, but why does it have to be played so often?

We haven't forgotten about Golliwogs, but at the same time we don't sell them in shops either. We don't say 'oh, those dolls are racist, but they were a product of its time so let's keep flogging them at Asda for £5.99.'