To ask how women did it?

[TheMurk]

Generations before, how did women do this? Manage children and households 24/7 before all the modern luxuries and distractions we have become so used to?

Having these things withdrawn over the last few months (including activities like baby classes etc) has made me think quite a lot about my grandmother, a woman raising four young children in the late 40s and 50s. My grandfather was a coalman and out all day working. Very traditional roles in that my grandmother was expected to look after everything to with the household and family while my grandfather worked and then did football or the pub when he had free time. He didn’t help her at all and she also had to do everything for him, he even cane home for his breakfast and lunch every day and expected it on the table.

So my grandmother was in the house all with 4 kids, had to do all housework, feeding, shopping, childcare etc. No car, no fancy double Pram’s or scooters to get kids around the streets for shopping, no supermarkets so multiple shops to visit to get the groceries, all cooking needed done, no convenience foods etc etc .

compared to me, I only have 2 kids and all the mod cons etc, plus a DH wfh and helping where he can, but I can barely put a slice of bread in the toaster without the baby screaming because I’ve put them down for 10 seconds, the toddler is (not ideally) occupied by TV but even that barely keeps them going. Toys are played with for minutes and discarded. Too smal for arts and crafts stuff etc.

I am finding it intense, almost unbearable, physically exhausting (not interested in the rights and wrongs of that “you shouldn’t have had kids” etc, I don’t think my grandmother’s generation made much conscious effort to think that deeply about having children, it was just what you did).

I’m interested in the practicalities of it. Did they just let the baby scream and hang of their leg while they made soup?

Did they just turn a blind eye to toddlers jumping off chairs while they did the laundry?

Did they let them roll about fighting and pulling each other’s hair because they were pressing the husbands clothes?

I can’t get any housework done at all, it’s just a constant merry go round of lifting the baby, managing the toddler, feeding them, cleaning up after feeding them, entertaining them, starting all over again.

How did they do it?

They weren't wasting time and money on baby classes.

There have been parenting books about since the 1660s, but obviously only the upper classes had time and money for that - or in many cases learned to read!

There have been parenting books since much, much earlier than that. And no, not just for the upper classes - there are medieval texts that address people quite far down the social spectrum, and were clearly intended so that a wealthy would could teach her young apprentice/servant, who would in turn (in theory!) use that information to raise her own children.

This thread is kind of edging towards the 'in the bad old days no one cared very much about children' myth, I think. I'm sure there have always been unpleasant people, or people who had no time or energy to care, but there are also plenty of examples of people who were devoted to their children and spent ages trying to do their best for them.

My mother had my sister in 1979 she went to the butchers and other local shops and came
Home. When she got home she felt like she had left something (it was only my sister) she had left my sister outside the butchers asleep in her Pram.

These day’s if you did that someone would call a social worker ha ha my mum was a very new mum and maybe tired that she had totally forgot about the baby She ran back and she was in the same place fast asleep.

Btw, this is slightly off-topic but talking about medieval parenting reminded me - how cute is this picture? It's baby Jesus! With a baby walker!

I guess I love it because it does look much more modern than you'd think, and maybe does show some things never change with families.

BeatrixPottersAlterEgo missing it as time for you to talk to other adults is completely understandable - there were people posting that their babies' development was being endangered by the cancelling of baby sensory classes! Baby meet ups for parents of babies under 1 are for the parents and that really should be ackowledged, both because women on maternity leave and the occassional dad on paternity leave do need to talk to others in the same position and it's absolutely a real and legitimate need, and because it's insane to genuinely worry that you're disadvantaging your baby by not going - it's not really for them!

She thought the pill was a marvelous idea when it came out and was glad that young women could have a choice. If you could afford it, I often had to get the bus to where DH worked on a Thursday so I could get some money, he was paid in cash on Thursday, as by the time he got home the chemist's would be closed and I needed to start a new pack.

I love the assumption that the older kids would be doing so much, my late MIL at one stage had 5 under school age. I don't think the older ones were doing alot to help.

I don't agree standards were lower, I remember my gran on her hands and knees scrubbing the front step and her bit of pavement, women with a dirty front step were frowned on and the rest of the house was immaculate. If my gran saw my front step she'd be horrified, I definitely need to give it a wipe over but I have no intention of donkey stoning it.

Things like whitewashing the outside loo were done regularly, having the whitest line of nappies was a competitive sport and getting them out early. Neighbours would judge if your nappies looked a bit grey or you hung them out after lunch and obviously hanging washing out on a Sunday was a total scandal in the town.

If gran heard anyone saying, "Hard work never hurt anyone" she would reply, "And it never did them any good." She was a worn out old woman at 50, she'd buried 3 babies, coped with her younger children when her husband was away in the war and coped when he came home and had a breakdown. She could cook a feast with scraps and I remember my mother crying when she said when they were kids they'd sit down to a meal and gran would say she had already eaten and she just had a slice of bread and butter. As an adult she realised gran would miss meals so there was enough for the family.

How did they cope? They had no choice.

Oh, that's annoying, wrong pic. Here:

My Nan raised 12 from the 1940s to 1960s the only boy was born 17 years after all the girls) her mother helpers her and she her mother, children played in the street together from early on and the older children ( especially the girls) would take the baby around the block in the pram, with children entertaining themselves from early on.

I asked her how she did it with one wage and a 4 bed house and so many children, but she said she was really lucky as there was a good community spirit, no distractions and lots of routine. Plus my grandad was very hands on, for the time.

She also said that women were prepared for motherhood/ staying home from an early age, as that was what was expected of you.
She talks all the time of how my grandad asked which house they wanted to buy and she chose the one in the same street as her mum and 3 of her sisters and how my grandad joked it was falling down. She still lives there.

She also often tells me that there are more options and more pressure on women now as they're expected to do and be everything.

I think children helped out more. My dad grew up in the 40s on a farm his dad owned. He, his sisters and brother all worked on the farm and his sisters especially did quite a lot of cooking (from a much younger age than most parents would allow today). My mum also grew,up in the 40s and very unusually my gran worked. She remembers spending time with her sisters,playing and family time was limited to just Sunday afternoon. My gran still did everything for her children and husband even though she worked.
I think it was just expected the women did everything at home and their children just stayed out playing.
We have it so easy now. My sister was born in 75 (and my mum already had my 2 brothers)and she was thrilled because my grandad gave her and my dad enough money to buy a freezer and washing machine. Can you imagine being with 3 small children no washing machine?

When my parents got their first automatic washing machine, I remember they pulled up chairs and watched it go through a complete cycle. After years of mangles and twin tubs it must've been a revelation, god bless them.

My grandmother raised 9 children in a tiny three bedroom house - grandfather was away a lot as he was a shepherd. Whenever she got pregnant again her neighbours would say " I see Mervyn has been home then ".

She was such a calm woman, nothing seemed to faze her at all. When I asked her how she dealt with 9 children in the house, she said that they spent a lot of time playing outside, and if they fought, " I never intervened unless they drew blood". Her system must have been successful - all the children survived and went on to lead happy lives.

Work expands to fit the time you have!

Remember when you her one child, and they're were times you felt busy, and wondered how on earth people managed it with two? Well then you've got a second, and it's busy but your manage, but can't imagine how that will be when your work as well. A year down the line, that seems manageable, because it has to. And it goes on.

Yes, standards of childcare and housework would have been different, but as your workload increases, you learn to prioritise the absolute necessities I guess, and become a lot more efficient.

My female relatives had really really different parenting standards and styles. My grandmother’s put the kids in a Pram and left them outside (one straight on the Main Street). They saw the children as a bit of a nuisance that got in the way of their ‘work’ which was looking after their menfolk (which meant cooking and cleaning constantly). They never played with the children themselves and let them roam. (My dad was returned by the police at 3 years old from Clapham Common back to his house at the oval/vauxhall. He’d been gone all day and my Nan never noticed or cared, in fact she was annoyed the police embarrassed her in front of the neighbours. She always told the story to me as an example of how naughty my dad was as a child ). That was the 40s/50s

My mum had a full time job which was her priority. I went to a CM from 1 year old. The CMs were completely unregulated and unchecked and were often a woman who put a card on a notice board. I had some really horrible, miserable experiences and my Mum just shrugged it off and said it was tough. From 11 I was then just home alone. That was the 70s/80s

They laugh at me and I’m not particularly in awe of their parenting or priorities. Different times.

at Mervyn coming home

I have no answers but I too wonder this all the time! I am in same boat with a toddler, a baby and a very wonderful, helpful DH wfh. All the mod cons, washer/dryer, dishwasher, online shopping, my own car. It absolutely boggles my mind how women used to do it but I guess they just spent much, much less time interacting with their children? Could be (partly) why (as a general rule) each generation is getting more intelligent..?

I often wonder how women coped with the loss of their children. My own grandmother lost 3 of her children to TB, 10, 8 and 2 years old. My dad was 6 at the time. I can't get my head around how she got on with life after loss like that. Then a few years later she died herself in childbirth and the eldest daughter, barely a teen, brought up her younger siblings. My gran lost 3, two at birth or very shortly after and one as a toddler. She coped with the first 2, the 3rd she never really got over. His name was never mentioned, she would buy us Christmas presents but never celebrated Christmas, she would spend it alone as he died close to Christmas and my mother said she never enjoyed Christmas after that, she did her best for her surviving children but her lost boy meant she never enjoyed it.

She feared what she had seen happen to other women, she would describe it as, "They went astray in their minds." I remember not understanding what it meant, I mean a letter can go astray but how do you go astray in your mind? I would think I was a teenager when I realised what she meant and of course the danger was that if you did "go astray in your mind" you would end up in the hospital ie. a psychiatric hospital, and once you were in you might never come out. She couldn't even grieve as she wanted to. Her MIL told her off when her first child died at birth, no sympathy apparently just came round and said what a shame she had let a boy die.

I'm actually sat crying thinking of the terrible life she had and how wonderful she was.

@SarahAndQuack

I work in child development .

I was watching a really interesting documentary about the role of play in young animals development - so many species have that 'play' phase where they learn from mucking about with minimal supervision. Safety aside, I think it's vital and underestimated.

And as for kids helping with home tasks - for girls especially, that was effectively 'on the job' training. Young girls did more mothering of younger siblings, whereas when they were older they would leave their own children with their older kids.

I grew up in the seventies in Ireland .Much of what is being talked about here as being from the war generation was reality in Ireland even when I was a child particularly in the West of Ireland. Large families , small homes with no modern appliances, heating or even hot water. Kids sleeping top and tail in bed and babies appearing out of nowhere every year in some families (one didn't ask)Kids unattended ,playing on streets empty of cars and just wandering here there and everywhere from a very young age. Parent was a noun and not a verb.

Just looking at my own childhood in the 60s, there was little parental supervision. After breakfast we would leave the house and go and play with our mates out in the garden, on the street, on our bikes, traipsing round the woods. We came home when we were hungry! We had a level of freedom that I guess isn't common nowadays. And, yes, when it was too wet to play outdoors we'd drive mum insane with our bickering!

YY, it's strange isn't it - we seem to have got a huge emphasis on children 'learning' but often actual 'play' is treated as a bit of a poor relation. Interesting to think about the parallel to animals.

I was born in the fifties. We were only at home for meals and sleeping, the rest was either at school or in the streets and parks with friends. A crowd of kids went to school together from our streets and we would pick up little kids on the way and take them along with no adults involved. Really, we hardly saw our parents.

@Desiringonlychild, that Singapore/caning post rang a bell.
I was told by a Singaporean relative of the woman in question, that she’d supervise her young children’s music practice every morning, and whack their hands with a cane if they played a wrong note.
When her (non Singaporean) husband objected, she’d just whack him too.
This was fairly recent.

Although this sort of thing is not unusual in Singapore, I should add that the relative who told me this did not approve at all.

I agree that women - and men too - didn't necessarily cope with the death of their children.

The death of babies was sadly expected to a degree, but many families have the story of a great grandparent who never got over losing one of their children who died after surviving infancy.

My grandmother's father allegedly never got over the death of his older daughter at age 9 or 10 and "wasn't the same person" afterwards.

I remember helping an elderly neighbor with something several years ago and asking about the photo of a young family on her wall - herself with her husband and 3 small children. She told me quite calmly about her husband dying in WW2 and then told me her children's names and burst into tears when she said the middle one's name and that he died when he was 6.

I reckon kids were mostly left to their own devices after maybe two and the older siblings would keep an eye on them. They’d often just be kicked out into the street from dawn till dusk to play. They also went to school so not like it has been over the past couple of months for us having no break at all!

Suppose because basic things such as washing were a lot tougher it took up more time so they were more occupied than we generally are.

I think they had it much easier really! Just my opinion speaking from my experiences with my grandparents and mother.

Firstly , we had many siblings and cousins around so we basically entertained each other all day long. Now, families are much smaller and dont grow up together so we have to keep our kids stimulated and occupied all the time. Not to mention the older kids had the responsibility of taking care of the younger ones. So 'childcare' back then was much, much easier.

Then there wasnt any fiddling and farting around mealtimes. one meal was provided and you ate it. Now there's fussiness and food issues that we cater for. So meal planning, food shopping and cooking a variety is more of a chore back then. Not to mention catering for snacks which they didnt do.

Education - well we kids were very much self sufficient with that as well. We got ourselves to the library and did what we needed to without much help from our parents. Now, it's a completely different ball game.

I honestly feel that in the previous generations the major hardship was financial. In so many other aspects they had it so much easier. Also the older kids were expected to share the burden of household chores too so theres that.