To ask how women did it?

[TheMurk]

Generations before, how did women do this? Manage children and households 24/7 before all the modern luxuries and distractions we have become so used to?

Having these things withdrawn over the last few months (including activities like baby classes etc) has made me think quite a lot about my grandmother, a woman raising four young children in the late 40s and 50s. My grandfather was a coalman and out all day working. Very traditional roles in that my grandmother was expected to look after everything to with the household and family while my grandfather worked and then did football or the pub when he had free time. He didn’t help her at all and she also had to do everything for him, he even cane home for his breakfast and lunch every day and expected it on the table.

So my grandmother was in the house all with 4 kids, had to do all housework, feeding, shopping, childcare etc. No car, no fancy double Pram’s or scooters to get kids around the streets for shopping, no supermarkets so multiple shops to visit to get the groceries, all cooking needed done, no convenience foods etc etc .

compared to me, I only have 2 kids and all the mod cons etc, plus a DH wfh and helping where he can, but I can barely put a slice of bread in the toaster without the baby screaming because I’ve put them down for 10 seconds, the toddler is (not ideally) occupied by TV but even that barely keeps them going. Toys are played with for minutes and discarded. Too smal for arts and crafts stuff etc.

I am finding it intense, almost unbearable, physically exhausting (not interested in the rights and wrongs of that “you shouldn’t have had kids” etc, I don’t think my grandmother’s generation made much conscious effort to think that deeply about having children, it was just what you did).

I’m interested in the practicalities of it. Did they just let the baby scream and hang of their leg while they made soup?

Did they just turn a blind eye to toddlers jumping off chairs while they did the laundry?

Did they let them roll about fighting and pulling each other’s hair because they were pressing the husbands clothes?

I can’t get any housework done at all, it’s just a constant merry go round of lifting the baby, managing the toddler, feeding them, cleaning up after feeding them, entertaining them, starting all over again.

How did they do it?

KKSlider that's very true. A lot of families hadn't really recovered from WW1, the flu epidemic and the depression in the '30s before they were thrown into the 2nd world war. That's a lot to be just getting 'on with' really.

Just think nowadays there will be women with babies and young children living on streets next door to women in the same situation...both maybe lonely but no one knocks on each others doors for a coffee or a chat..

My grandparents in the thirties and forties had the benefit of uni, but in exchange they delayed their marriage and setting up a home while they both worked to save enough money. In return they financially supported younger siblings and unmarried female cousins who in turn came in and ran their household, cooked, helped with kids etc.

I am not sure whether corporal punishment makes parenting easier. I come from Singapore and corporal punishment is pretty much de riguer there, something like 8 in 10 parents practice caning, usually with belts and balloon sticke. I remember going to primary school in the 90s and my classmates making fun of me because I had no cane marks (my parents didn't believe in caning though I was hit on a few occasions). Cos like everyone was pretty much stripey (long red marks on arms). They said I was a spoilt princess. They also caned boys in the school for stuff like theft and fighting. One of my most traumatic experiences was watching my classmate get caned, we were 17. And all the girls started crying and we had to get counselling

I don't think it makes parenting easier. If anything, it makes it harder. Cos there is a lot of conflict, intensified emotions. Caning in Singapore has a kinda modern tiger mum dimension- my ex boyfriend's mum would go through his exam paper with him and whack him with a cane if there was a single careless mistake.

I am 27 so that really wasnt too long ago and it probably hasn't changed much but I think the younger kids are probably not whacked as much as we were back then.

I think people worked harder and enjoyed their lives more. It’s perfectly possible to look after multiple children without swaddling them in the garden or neglecting them.

I don’t know why some people assume that everybody had family nearby to help. My mother (b. 1918) and her siblings (she was one of 5) all moved away from their childhood home area, to different areas, for work.

My DM (4 children, no automatic washing machine until we were all more or less grown up) didn’t go back to work until I was 14 and judged able to keep an eye on younger siblings after school and during school holidays. Until then, just running the house, washing, cleaning, cooking all from scratch, shopping (no help, no car and babies/small children to have to cart along ) was a full time job.

Who else remembers nappies steaming on a clothes horse in front of the fire (no central heating) when it was too wet to dry them on the line, and disposables hadn’t even been thought of?

It was only after she finally went back to work that there was any spare cash for non-basics.

Actually covid confinement has helped me realise how life was for my great-grandmothers. No cars ! That changes everything. Round here, the roads are empty. It is quiet and safe. It makes things local, too. I think my great grand-mothers would have known most of the people around them every day. I know virtually no-one when I step out into our town. It is dominated by cars, which also makes the community anonymous to a certain degree.

PPs who've said "they didn't work" - have you looked into your family tree? Most of us will find that their female ancestors did work.

Without contraception, families were also larger with bigger age gaps. Older sisters often looked after younger ones.

I think about this a lot too when I feel times are hard I often think back a few generations ago and think how lucky I am. I think it must have been so difficult. Its difficult now but mainly because of the pressures we put on ourselves and each other to #liveourbestlives. Life would have been a hard slog for a lot of people unless you were rich enough to afford a maid and/or nanny or lucky enough to live with some of your extended family so you could all pitch in. It must have been absolute mayhem with young children around. Babies and toddlers were probably just sat in prams staring at the celling while you got your work done, they would not have expected much stimulation or excitement and would have got used to it, older children would have been turfed out to play in the street with their friends unsupervised. No TV to keep the children occupied while you get stuff done. And without modern conveniences housework would have been non stop 7 days a week. We expect a lot more pleasure out of life now. I think people must have just accepted life was a slog.

It's balance isn't it - it certainly wasn't better in the past, although some things were.

People weren't better or tougher either, and a lot of babies died, a lot of women's distress was medicalised and they were on valium or locked away in asylums, a lot of female children missed out on staying on at school because they were needed at home or sent into service to send money home, and the same for boys with regard to being sent to work at 14 to bring in money for the household.

On the other hand I splutter at the posters I saw on here at the start of lock down who genuinely thought their baby's development would be impacted because "baby sensory" was cancelled. "Baby sensory" as widespread semi expected baby "class" has only existed for a few years and it is surely obvious to most people how to ensure babies receive sensory input at home - in fact it happens by itself if you carry them around in a sling most of the time and put them on a playmat on their tummy sometimes.

Using the examples of my parents childhood's - both from large families in poverty:

Yes you did leave the baby to cry
Older girls did a lot of childcare. Older might mean very young
Kids having freedom to play outside looks nice (my DF had happy memories of exploring bombed out London), but also means absence of supervision. Both of my parents were sexually abused by strangers as a result.
Families had a lot less stuff - no washing machine but also far less washing to do. No putting on two loads a day if you only have 2 dresses. You aren't tidying up the toys if your child only has one doll and then only at the age of 11. Bath time - what bath time?

I'm quite old and I spent a lot of time with my grandmother who was born in 1908. I've lived through and also studied this.

Typical day wasn't too hard.
Get up, flannel wash and dressed. Children dressed themselves or toddlers were dressed by mum/nan. Children were more obedient then. Smacked for wriggling etc. This was very normal.
Woman fried breakfast. All ate around a table.
Husband went to work.
Woman did morning (womens)work, this was different on different days. Dusting, sweeping, taking out and beating carpets, washing up of course, every day. Walking to town street to shop, after school run. Baking in the afternoon or playing in the garden. Mum would read and relax in the afternoon. Children milled around in holidays or went out to play. All children knew their neighbours and played with them. Baby often in highchair. Pre schoolers played more independently then.
Women got the first 6 weeks after birth off, firstly by spending 10 days in hospital and not discharged until fully well, and secondly by always having their mum, or if she was dead, then a female relative move in at least until baby was 6 weeks if not 6 months if baby was tricky / unsettled.
It was unheard of for the dad to help with women's work. It was deeply socially unacceptable.

Lunch was a light meal as was tea.
Housework was only done in the morning and crucially NO TV was watched in the day.
Husband was often home for tea which was cake and bread and cheese.
Dinner in the evening.
In later years after womans lib in the 70s the man used to wash up after dinner.
Otherwise in more traditional households the woman would wash up. All meals were at set times too.
Usually 8am, 12noon, 4pm and 6pm. These were fixed in stone. I'd dad wasnt back it would be put on plate in oven.
After dinner, children in bath then pyjamas then bed for 7pm. One short story.
Woman washed up dishes from dinner and 'fussed about' (cleared tidied and sorted house after day) then husband and wife sit in parlour and she did embroidery while he read. (Honestly! This wasnt just in novels). TV in parlour from late 1960s.
This is a London power station worker and wife. A small house but the front room / parlour was kept separate and only used in the evening or for guests/ vicar. They lived in the sitting room which nowadays would be knocked through to a still small kitchen. They had a little galley kitchen to the side.
It was easier than you think. Without TV or internet to distract you, housework wasn't as despised as it it is now. It was considered fun and satisfying. Like the song 'a spoonful of sugar'.

I often wonder how women coped with the loss of their children. My own grandmother lost 3 of her children to TB, 10, 8 and 2 years old. My dad was 6 at the time. I can't get my head around how she got on with life after loss like that. Then a few years later she died herself in childbirth and the eldest daughter, barely a teen, brought up her younger siblings.

@TheMurk - I’m so pleased you posted this! We have a 10w old (currently asleep on me) and I get nothing done!
I’m obsessing over maximum awake times and how and when to get him to sleep, how to get him to sleep in his cot through the day etc and I keep wondering how people used to approach it!

I have to say, I'm one of the mums who is worried about baby sensory being cancelled! But it's not because I can't stick the baby into a tub of rainbow rice at home, it's because baby sensory is the hour in the week where we got to see and talk to real live mothers and children. Whereas whoever lived in my house 100 years ago could have opened the front door and had the same conversation across the street, while her toddler sat on the dirt road with other toddlers making "sensory" mud pies! My youngest hasn't seen anyone except her parents and preteen sister since March - it's more the socialisation and opportunities for language development I worry about rather than the playdough in village hall aspect

Women staying at home after marriage is a myth

When I got married, my office manager (in her 60s) asked if I would be giving up work. This was in 2000!!

Oh yes, as mentioned above, giving away children to the "childless aunt" was a real thing. In my family alone in the 1930s:

Mum was sent from overseas aged 10 BY HERSELF to live with a childless Aunt.

Two of Dad's siblings lived with their aunt up the road (the Aunt picked them herself!).

DH's dad, one of twins, was sent to live with an Aunt.

I am the "childless aunt" in our family with 17 nieces and nephews. Fortunately the youngest is mid-20s so I appear to have got away with it

I think nowadays people have absolutely ridiculous standards and make a rod for their own back - like people who only wear things once before washing them, then moan that they have 12 loads of washing to do a week. We re-wear everything until it actually needs to be washed, hey presto, no mountains of endless washing.

Plus people signing their kids up to a million activities then driving them everywhere instead of letting them just have down-time, hang around with their friends and get the bus.

Women did work but definitely not as many, and there were barriers. My grandma was a nurse, had a secret engagement in the late 40s early 50s. It was secret because if the matron had known she was engaged she’d have been fired as she had a man to look after her and a girl who didn’t should have the job. Post depression life. She had to finish up when she married as that couldnt be secret.20 years later she had to go back to work when her husband died suddenly and I guess it was different by then. (This is in Australia)

Folk have different experiences, my mum who died st 83, 4 yrs ago.
Told me, she has someone to help at home, before I was born, 1 of 4 I am.
She started teaching at night school when my younger brother was 3 weeks old.
We didn’t have hardly close family, my aunt had 4 children, my grandparents didn’t help, and ny maternal granny didn’t live near .
My mum always worked too

I think nowadays people have absolutely ridiculous standards

Agree. Lots of people live in immaculate houses. I go round to friends houses and there's literally not a speck of dust or an item out of place, or even an item of crockery in the sink. Ironically they probably do less housework than the woman in the past. It's just easier now with more gadgets

I was born in 1980 and my mum would leave me in the pram in our garden. To be fair she was raised in an old fashioned way as was my father. They were children in the 50's. From what they say the children helped with the younger ones -my dad was from a big family. Girls were expected to do housework but not boys. My Dad's mum would hit all of her children, if one of them misbehaved. Her logic was she would teach the rest of the to not misbehave and hit them for the naughty stuff she hadn't known they had done

Both of my grandmothers worked. Money was tight for both and they couldn't not. Their life was much harder than mine. Both looked “old” by the time l was born and both had mental health issues. Life was hard for them and they had a lot less choices than me. With my 2 degrees, 2 car household, office based job, washing machine, microwave and fiancé who does as much housework as me

I think the problem is it's gone too far the other way of every day being revolved around children and them having way too much input. Plus not having to entertain themselves which is something my parents made us do all the time. As they had stuff they needed to get on with eg. Work, DIY, cleaning etc. For example friends children saying they don't want to go to school and not going (obviously it's been different lately but apart from that it's tough lm afraid). Children need to learn you have to do things you don't want to do E.g. l didn't want to go to work today as l felt ill and tired. I am not ill enough to warrant being off and work is very busy. So tough

welshhat.wordpress.com/elements-of-welsh-costumes/shawl-siol/nursing-shawl-siol-magu/

www.rembrandtpainting.net/rmbrdnt_selected_etchings/three_beggars.htm

www.marionrose.net/the-cultural-history-of-carrying-babies/

It isn't that women in the past all left their babies to cry though - throughout most of history in Europe and the UK as well as worldwide babies were carried in shawls or carriers in some communities.

Other people left them to cry and avoided becoming overly attached to them until they'd survived the dangerous first year - or first five years - of childhood.

Leaving babies to cry wasn't some excellent way of coping with babies, it was common in some communities and not done in others at various points in the past. Of course within living memory parenting books advocated leaving babies to cry, so some parents did it against their better judgement.

There have been parenting books about since the 1660s, but obviously only the upper classes had time and money for that - or in many cases learned to read!

This is interesting:

www.parent.com/how-parenting-advice-became-an-industry/

My grandmother had my mum in the 1930's. From what I've heard it was damn hard work! They lived in a terraced street in a large city. She took in ironing for extra money. My mum was the only girl so expected to help with siblings/chores. Played out in the street.
Women helped each other out, my grandmother had a neighbour help when she went into labour at home, couldn't afford to send for the doctor. She lost a few children in infancy too, no counselling, it wasn't talked about. Then a war to live through.

I’m one of 6 born in the 50’s/60’s. When the youngest was 2 my dm went to work and trained as a nurse. The 2 year old stayed with my gran until he started school, living there all week. She was 69. My df was our primary career at weekends otherwise we were left. The oldest, my db was quite a wild child so my older dsis was responsible for ensuring we washed properly and got the bus to school.
When my dsis started at secondary I was 9 and had to take an 8, 6 and 4 year old to the bus stop and get them to school.
My dm didn’t manage, our lives were a chaotic mess most of the time.
It’s telling that the youngest chopped a finger off, got scalded with boiling water and put his hand through a glass door. On every occasion our parents were at work and neighbours had to intervene.

We survived but I think social services would be stepping in if this happened in 2020.

Oops I bolded the links instead of making them clicky!

welshhat.wordpress.com/elements-of-welsh-costumes/shawl-siol/nursing-shawl-siol-magu/

www.rembrandtpainting.net/rmbrdnt_selected_etchings/three_beggars.htm

www.marionrose.net/the-cultural-history-of-carrying-babies/

www.parent.com/how-parenting-advice-became-an-industry/

Yes, mother's helps were a thing, weren't they. Girls from about 10 up who were too young to leave school but old enough to earn something would go and help young wives with the babies over dinner time, or would get shopping for elderly neighbours, all for a few pence. I remember my gran telling me about it. My eldest would be fab at that actually!