To ask how women did it?

[TheMurk]

Generations before, how did women do this? Manage children and households 24/7 before all the modern luxuries and distractions we have become so used to?

Having these things withdrawn over the last few months (including activities like baby classes etc) has made me think quite a lot about my grandmother, a woman raising four young children in the late 40s and 50s. My grandfather was a coalman and out all day working. Very traditional roles in that my grandmother was expected to look after everything to with the household and family while my grandfather worked and then did football or the pub when he had free time. He didn’t help her at all and she also had to do everything for him, he even cane home for his breakfast and lunch every day and expected it on the table.

So my grandmother was in the house all with 4 kids, had to do all housework, feeding, shopping, childcare etc. No car, no fancy double Pram’s or scooters to get kids around the streets for shopping, no supermarkets so multiple shops to visit to get the groceries, all cooking needed done, no convenience foods etc etc .

compared to me, I only have 2 kids and all the mod cons etc, plus a DH wfh and helping where he can, but I can barely put a slice of bread in the toaster without the baby screaming because I’ve put them down for 10 seconds, the toddler is (not ideally) occupied by TV but even that barely keeps them going. Toys are played with for minutes and discarded. Too smal for arts and crafts stuff etc.

I am finding it intense, almost unbearable, physically exhausting (not interested in the rights and wrongs of that “you shouldn’t have had kids” etc, I don’t think my grandmother’s generation made much conscious effort to think that deeply about having children, it was just what you did).

I’m interested in the practicalities of it. Did they just let the baby scream and hang of their leg while they made soup?

Did they just turn a blind eye to toddlers jumping off chairs while they did the laundry?

Did they let them roll about fighting and pulling each other’s hair because they were pressing the husbands clothes?

I can’t get any housework done at all, it’s just a constant merry go round of lifting the baby, managing the toddler, feeding them, cleaning up after feeding them, entertaining them, starting all over again.

How did they do it?

Amymone what the heck is that !!

@Lookingbackatme I was very early 70's, mainland New Zealand. Sounds similar to me!

I was the youngest of four, and my eldest sister was thirteen years older than me - I was the 'whoopsy' baby.

I only recently found out just how much of my early care was done by my eldest sister - along with much of the overseeing of her sisters, and cooking tea! My aunt and uncle were gobsmacked one day, when they came to visit - Mum was helping Dad at the shop, she had me on her hip, stirring tea on the stove, while overseeing her two younger sisters doing their homework. When I found that out, it explained a lot about what my sister is like, and our family dynamics and relationships!

There was none of this 'demand feeding' business, it was every four hours, and once you put your baby down, they stayed down, until scheduled to be up and fed again, cry as they may. Which is why putting the pram down the bottom of the garden was so popular I guess.

When older, it was expected you'd entertain yourself, while Mum got on.

Older still, bugger off from under my feet, make sure you're home by five. If I see you or hear you, I'm likely to find you something to do. . . 'Bye Mum!'

And then, Mum got on with the housework. I do know we were expected to wear our clothes a lot more often before they got washed, than we do now.

Mum was very organised, and everything was done at it's appointed time - washing, housework, ironing, shopping.

Dad did bugger all at home, except what he wanted to do - his home brew and his racing pigeons. He did mow the lawns, Mum refused to learn how to work the mower, wise woman. He tried to grow a vege garden - not his key skill.

Mum also used to work part-time, packing fruit, and she also helped in Dad's shop. Both contributions that were neither valued nor acknowledged by Dad.

Benign neglect mostly.

Many of the children in my estate were put out at a certain time and not expected back/checked upon until hours later.

The freedom was nice but there were also downsides. A boy we knew drowned in the quarry, another was accidentally strangled in a rough play fight. And there were a fair few dodgy men trying to get you to look at them/ touch them/get in their car.

A number of factors, I imagine.

My mum frequently tells me that when a woman had a new baby, the neighbours got her groceries, took the older kids to school, helped with cooking and housework. The older kids were shifted out. There was little expectation of anything other than a tough time. The realities of motherhood weren't shrouded in mystery as they are now. And women struggled. Hugely. They just didn't talk about it.

@Lardlizard it's a baby cage! I remember reading about them ages ago. They were used, especially in large apartment blocks, to give the baby fresh air!! Bloody terrifying, especially when suspended from the umpteenth floor!!

Kids fended for themselves from a young age. They'd be playing in the street to get out of mums way. Older siblings helping out.

But honestly I think a lot of it is down to lack of any other option, or even knowledge of another option.

You did as your parents did, as your neighbours did. There was no social media, news wasn't as frequent as now! So you didn't know any different so you had no expectations that your life could/should be another way.

Also yes we have luxury mod cons to do some jobs quicker and easier then back in the 50s but we also have bigger houses, more bathrooms, more stuff in general!
If you were working class you had a few rooms and a shared privy!
One or two outfits to wear and clean, nothing like we do now.

All the mod cons has meant is that we can buy more stuff!!

@fleamaker My mum had the first automatic washing machine in our street and all the kids used to come round and watch it!

"My mum was 12 when the younger DC were born, and she helped to bring them up while her mum ran a B&B. But people just got on with it in those days."

To be fair, kids with caring responsibilities "just get on with it" today too. What other option have they got?

I think it must have really been the older children in these massive families that had it worst. The younger ones probably had a much softer time as there just wasn't as much looking after to do after the trail of siblings dried up. I remember elderly ladies in my family telling me they'd had to quit school to care for their siblings, bitterness still visible as obviously it had limited their opportunities.

I wonder if sometimes there was "payback" when the older girls started having kids, younger sister to come and stay and help?

Some of the comments here about whole families/communities living close together - that's true, but the flipside was if people went away to work, across the country or even to other countries, they couldn't really visit. If people were gone they were really gone. You see it a lot in novels - that someone takes the opportunity to visit their sister a hundred miles away who they haven't visited for 10 years etc.

My mum had five of us, no car, no washing machine, no freezer, no dishwasher, distinctly unhelpful husband.

Baby went in a pram in the garden where it could scream itself to sleep. toddler went in a play pen and mum worked flat out all day. The rest of us were at school or off on our own.

Food was casserole type meals that were put together and then left for three hours so no fuss. Only one bathroom to clean.

We had deliveries of eggs, milk and bread. DM walked the mile into town with toddler standing on step at back of pram, bought meat/tea/coffee and toiletries. Veg came from the garden.

Houses were less clean, but everyone was so knackered there was less stress. No insomnia.

She hand washed clothes and dried them on the line, but sheets went to a laundry - her one luxury. She used to fall asleep in front of the TV every night.

That was in the 60s. She outlived my DF and survived to 88. She was a tough old bird

Alcohol and Valium

My mum apparently had a friend with twins and an older child. At 11am precisely she would have her first sherry of the day

@TheMurk. Your post said there were no prams, but that is not true. Prams have been around for many years. There were also double prams, or a child seat to go over the pram (which were much larger than current ones) which would carry a toddler and baby.
In large families, the older children helped with the younger ones.
My mother, born 1910, certainly had some social contact, but their groups were different to ours. e.g.. She belonged to the Co-op group, the socialist group, a church group ( the church had many social groups during the day).
My grandparents also had social groups often connected with the place of employment . Don't believe that women didn't work. In my family women always worked, but you also found a lot of help.
My great grandmother took in washing for example, especially after the death of my Great grandfather.

This thread is fascinating.
My Granny had 4 children in the 1920s and 30s she was a teacher and when they were older went back to work. My Grandfather was a furniture maker had his own small business. She was able to have a woman in to do the washing by hand! The shopping was lists given into the Individual shops in the town and then it was delivered.
My mum had two children and we lived in a small London flat, housing was difficult for many years post war. She had no washing machine and little outdoor hanging space. I cannot imagine how she coped with nappies and other laundry.

My Great-grandmother had 13 children all of whom survived. Her husband was a prison officer and a brute. She could neither read not write and by the time she was 30 looked about 60. All her children did well but her life must have been hellish.

Well as I have been running after a pair of lunatics all day I’ve not had a chance to read all the responses but I’m going to sit down after dinner and have a good read.

However I like the idea of doing so with a sherry and a Valium @HenSolo!

The way in which childhood has changed is astonishing. My grandmother (b1912) was taken out of school at 12 to look after her three siblings and run the house when her mother died in childbirth. The baby was “adopted” by another branch of the family. She cooked, cleaned etc for the family until she got married and then during the war, ran the family business, looked after the home and had my mum. At that point there were other female relatives around so they helped out. She boiled all the washing in a copper on a Monday and used a mangle until 1978. It was exhausting and unrewarding. She was a highly intelligent woman who never had any choices but she didn’t complain about it, you just used to do it, because there was nothing else.

My mum worked as a teacher and ran the house mainly cooking from scratch. She was quite a involved parent but in the 1970s and 80s us children just roamed in packs around the woods and fields on our bikes. We used to go home for lunch and tea but didn’t expect to be entertained or even spoken to! I loved my childhood.

My own children’s lives are totally different - their expectations with attention and interest are so wildly different from my own as a child!

Even just the difference between when I was a young child in the 80 and now is vast.

We lived in a three bed semi in a nice area with front and back gardens. We didn't have central heating until around 1989. Before that we had a coal fire in the living room and another in the kitchen then vents in the chimney breast that let warm air into the bedrooms but it would still be freezing in the winter with ice on the inside of the (wooden framed) windows on very cold mornings.

Twice a day my mum would have to clean out the grates and lay both of the fires then keep them topped up during the day, it heated our hot water too so even in summer she would need to light one of the fires for at least part of the day. There was a coal bunker in the back garden and the coal man came once a week to fill it, there was an ash pile down the side of the house and he would shovel it up and take it away after filling the bunker. I can't imagine having to lay fires every day!

I had Terry nappies until I was six weeks old and then I had plasters for hip dysplasia so was entitled to free disposable nappies from the NHS because I needed to wear two at a time. Early disposable nappies had potato starch inside to absorb the wee and a plastic outer. I couldn't have baths because if the plaster. I must have smelled lovely - like a plastic wrapped, sweaty spud!

I remember she had a twin tub washing machine that tucked under the kitchen counter and she would pull it out to use it. One side was water for washing and the other was for spinning/draining. It had to be manually filled using a hose and my job was to sit on the counter next to the sink and turn the tap off when she told me to. The clothes went in the wash part then had to be pulled out by hand and put into the spinner. While they were spinning she would drain the wash part and refill it with fresh water so they could be rinsed after they'd been spun, then they needed another spin, then possibly another rinse depending on whether they still seemed soapy, then out onto the line or onto a clothes horse in front of the fire.

She had a coachbuilt pram that my younger sibling went in and I had a little red leather harnessed seat bolted to a board that sat across the foot of the pram, I would sit with my feet dangling and holding onto the handlebar facing her. She would walk into town (3 miles) and back (3 miles) because taking the pram on a bus was too much faff. Once my sibling could sit up she got an umbrella fold pushchair instead. It was basically a basket seat bolted to a metal frame with little metal rings to stop it collapsing and a bumpy rubber coating in the push bar. I hated when she would ask me to fold it for her while she lifted the shopping onto the bus because I would always nip my fingers, the exact same model was later on Watchdog (?) because several children lost their fingers in the folding mechanism.

We didn't have a supermarket near us so for food shopping she had to go to the local high street, about a mile away, and visit each individual shop to get what she needed.

She worked for a bit when my sibling and I were small, doing bar and shop work mainly although she did become a SAHM once sibling number three came along because she said it was too much for our dad to deal with while she was at work. Our dad would come home from work and as he came in the door, she would go out to work. His tea would be all ready for him before she left and we would be fed and in our pyjamas so that he didn't need to do anything, he didn't even need to put us to bed as he would take us with him to collect her at closing time - no car seats in the car though, of course.

My mum now loves all modcons. She's in her 50s and has every gadget going. Alexa controls all her lights, she doesn't even need to boil the kettle because Alexa does it for her so all she needs to do is pour. Washing machine, drier, dishwasher. She has someone comes in to do her gardening. She gets her car valeted once a month. She talks about 30-40 years ago as if it was the dark ages.

My mum, born in 63 was tied to a radiator on wash day!

Also...parents didn't have much choice but to use the threat (and see through) physical discipline

DH was the type of toddler who woke early, his mom would put his harness on and tie him to the clothes line!! 1959-1960. Send him outside with a few toys. Loads of kids around in the 60’s who played together on the streets.
My grandmother born in 1899, had a well organized farm house. The children did farm chores before school, my mom (the youngest collected eggs, chicken and goose) her older sister led out the cows to pasture. No clue what the other 4 did.

The heating in my house is coal fire dependant, and I do feel rather Victorian when it's 7am on a January morning and I'm lugging coal in from the yard

I think what makes it difficult now is that our expectations are vastly different. We are surrounded by images of people doing other things - leisure time, holidays, watching TV, wearing beautiful clothes, having perfect brows. We are encouraged to believe in the 'work-life balance'. The expectation is that kids wear fresh clothes daily, have interesting and varied diet, are mentally stimulated. 100 years ago women would have had hopes/dreams I'm sure, but they'd be modest by modern standards and more achievable.

Nowadays we compare our life to the one the media suggests we should have, then we feel inadequate.

When my granny died she left some lovely crockery and glassware but she had saved for them and built up the collection over many years. These days I'd have felt that I needed to have decent crockery for 'visitors' and bought the whole set in one go, and I'm sure I'd not feel even half the pleasure that she did when she bought a single plate.

I think about this a lot - what would my 1950s equivalent be doing? Would my 1720 self also be worrying about the same things? Or would she just be glad her baby boy was alive. TBH spoiled finance (banker? merchants?) probably haven't changed much in the past could of centuries, except I also work a demanding job. I can see myself having some kind of Betty Draper/Mrs Maisel breakdown if I were attempting motherhood in the 50s

My Mum was born in 1943 (I was born in '86) and had a very similar middle class background to mine - she was traveling all across town by bus when she was FIVE though, but expectations were pretty similar. grammar school, university, some kind of stable profession. Her parents were an academic and a housewife and they were big travelers, she'd been allover europe by the time she was 10.

My dad had a very poor childhood as one of 5 who grew up on a farm. he had jobs from an early age and physical punishment was a big part of life - when he was a toddler his dad once hit him so hard he knocked him out :(. He doesn't look back on it fondly. The poverty was grinding - he and his brothers were looking after the livestock from when they were very small, and his sisters looked after the house. He had to leave school at 14 and he's never really got over it because he's really intelligent and could have gone so far.

To be fair, kids with caring responsibilities "just get on with it" today too. What other option have they got?

YY, this. I've been a bit uncomfortable with people on this thread implying that poverty/caring for family are problems from the 'past'. They're not, but quite likely a lot of people really struggling in 2020 aren't sitting around on MN, like us.

@beatrix - both DP and I have lived in homes with no central heating whatsoever. My first marital home, in 2010, had one single two-bar gas fire, in the corner of the living room. The bedroom and bathroom were unheated, and the ice froze in sheets on the inside of the windows in winter. It really put me off alternative fuel (though where we are is oil), but I could almost fancy coal when you make it sound so romantic!

MIL was one of 12. 11 made it to adulthood.

Her family were poor. Her dad drank what money there was and he was violent towards her mum and the children. Her mum had her first 5 children with 13 months between each (apart from twins - one died). Then on there was 2 and 3 year gaps. Last was born when she was 46, which she had prayed was the menopause.

Her mother was an amazing woman who kept everyone fed on not a lot. The children were free range, in the care of the older ones. The baby (whichever was youngest) was given a tin with some stones in as a toy. MIL, one of the older ones remembered watching a playmate of hers drown, they were both 4, playing at the pond with the other children. Around half a mile from home.

Her father would whistle for the children when it was time to come in. God forbid you were late.

Laundry was once a week, MIL's mum also used to clean the school, and in the summer holidays pick stones from the fields, with the children, for extra money.
MIL was born in 1929. Her mum died aged 60.

My grandma, born in 1930 had a similar up bringing, but a little higher up the social scale and without the violence. Her mother also worked, with 4 DC.

Both grandma and MIL were working mothers too.

I was sent out to the garden to play all day as long as the weather permitted and had my lunch passed to me through an open window. I was born in the 90s. We've been socialised to regard that as neglectful parenting. Yes we had a few accidents and ended up in A&E a few times but those are still some of my favourite memories. I'm so glad I was a child just before technology advances exploded. Parents think they're keeping their kids safe by keeping them inside on tablets and phones but they're just substituting one danger for another

This thread is a real eye opener for lots of reasons. I do way too much of trying to entertain my children. My nan lost her first born baby (thalidomide) she never saw it after it was born the doctors just took it away. I don't think she was even told if it was a boy or a girl. She wasn't allowed to speak of the baby, much less grieve for it. She had 5 more children but i think losing her first badly affected her and the subsequent children's childhoods.